Thoughts on solar installs on 23's.

[Mas]

Hello all, "No Mas" is our CP 23D for jumping aboard the sailing scene for the firs time in 25 years! We were a Compac owner previously, CP16, with no electric  or for that matter much of anything! No Mas has real creature comforts and electronics. she has shore power and a charge controller but we intend to sail to many locations in our area for multiple days with no access to electric. She does have a diesel so know that when running it we will charge but we hope to continue the tradition of this boat with only 353 hours on it's 1990 yanmar. We are also considering the wisdom of hauling every winter and thus keeping the batteries topped off becomes undoable with the shore power option. She has a two battery system with charge controller and monitoring panel.

We have used solar panels with much success on our land yacht (Sportsmobile 4x4 van) for many years and it's "moorings" also are no where near electric most of the time, even though it has "shore power" as well for those times we come into civilization. Much has changed in solar and cost since we first set up our van system 20 years ago. Would appreciate being educated by this incredible forum as to your experiences with solar on a craft such as ours. (would love to have it attached to a winter cover as well during the off season, thus movable). Have been doing the on-line thing and found this site to be interesting for our needs: http://gpelectric.com/products/solar-flex-kits-modules

Looking forward to hearing from folks and hopefully being able to help with questions others may have.

[BruceW]

No Mas,

I have very minimal electrics aboard, and decided to just get a 12 watt panel. It is square, flexible, etc, got it from Defender. I have it placed on the gas tank cover when I am not at the boat. It keeps the battery topped up for my lights. I put it in the starboard lazerette when I take the boat out. Kind of a minimalist approach.

Someone on here did some kind of major league solar panel project for powering lots more stuff for a lot longer. This could become a real interesting thread.

[Shawn]

I fit a 40w panel on top of the sliding hatch. That kept me charged up all the time including using an autopilot, LED lights, pressure water, radio and wind meter. On the hatch mostly kept the panel out of the way compared to most any other install location.

Shawn

[Mas]

So far the wisdom i have gleaned from folks for such small craft as our's is the thin semi-flexible type that can be stowed under a bunk and moved easily from bimini to deck, cover, or rigging! Much to ponder, but really want to be "off the grid" with her when out. Any thought's about multiple locations for such panels!

[Jeff S]

No Mas,

The small flexible panels are fine for 'trickle' charging when you are just wanting to top off the batteries when the boat is not in use.

In the Journeys, Anchorages, Destinations section there is a recent post called "Update on Abacos trip" where Chris posted pictures that included an interesting shot of a solar panel mounted on a pole on the transom of their C23.  That looks like an ideal solution since it is out of the way, does not interfere with sailing, and can be adjusted to always getting direct exposure.  He mentions that he had 150 Watts Solar but there must be more that we do not know or can see in the pictures.  The 36 cell panel comes up short of being able to produce 150 watts.  I've read that you can expect to get an average of 5 hours total output from a solar panel.  Example, a 150 Watt panel can produce about 9 amp times 5 for a total of 45 Amp a day.  Being able to adjust the angle and rotate a panel to always point directly at the sun greatly increases the total Amps.

[Mas]

Hey Jeff S,

The flexible panels I am looking at and others have suggested are more in the 40-100 watt range. Totally agree on the orientation as a key. We have used a rigid panel for years on our land yacht (Sportsmobile 4x4) that can go on the roof racks (which is fine 90% of the time, or if needed, it is installed so it can be moved with little effort. Just don't want to deal with a large ridged panel on a small craft, especially if it gets a little rough. No where to store it. Our ridged panel on the van is always removed placed into storage with no light hitting it, and it is over 20 years old and producing the same wattage as new. If not needed a thin flexible panel can be shoved under cushions in the cabin. May actually have a small inexpensive trickle charge panel for placing on the winter cover as well since not using the electrics then but wish the batteries to stay charged. HeaveToo has some great ideas on this and has a system that looks like a similar one might fit the bill.

Keep the ideas coming, as knowledge makes for good decision making!

BTW noticed you a relatively new as well. Welcome!

[Shawn]

Be aware the flexible panels tend to be larger than rigid panels for the same wattage. Other than on top of a bimini or dodger there really isn't any place to put a decent sized flexible panel where it won't be in the way. You can get a 10w or so on the front hatch (if it is not transparent)  but most of the others are too big to not block valuable space. They would also be tough to store out of the way when not in use. A permanent install (either fixed or flexible) is more likely to keep giving you power as it will always be ready to catch to sun.

Only time I removed this panel was to raise/lower the mast at the start/end of the season.



Shawn

[cw021382]

No Mas,  you really need to determine what you want your solar system to do then build accordingly.  Things to think about are battery bank size and configuration, panel-s location, amps you want to generate per day, how you are going to use the boat.  I wanted my 23d to be completely off grid.  I designed my system to never need shore power.  I ran a norcold chest type fridge freezer  full time, cabin and nav lights, wheel autopilot, charged 2 phones and gps's, pressure water, radio, vhf with GPS full time, 2 fans full time,  charged spotlight, etc. for over a month in the bahamas without plugging into shore power.  The engine was also started from the house bank as I don't want a separate battery for it.  I have a 150 watt panel mounted on a pole on the stern.  2 6v 300amp lifeline agm's mounted in the keel, a Morningstar charge controller and moniter.  This along with the 35 amp alternator when motoring takes care of all electrical needs and keeps the battery bank above 70% usually.  I only saw 60% on the monitor once and that was while moored in rain and storms for 2 days with no sun and not running the engine.  With the battery's low and with the panel in full sun I saw almost 9 amps many times.  Usually it was around 6 or 7 amps.  However, most of the time by 1-2 in the afternoon the battery's were charged and we were running on solar only.  The ability to aim the panel at the sun makes a lot of difference.  
The rigid panel is large and a pain to mount and unmount for trailering, but I didn't use a flexible panel on the Bimini because I wanted to be able to sail with it down when not needed.  The other thing I have to be careful of is tying up to pilings or tall docks on the port side as the solar panel does hang over somewhat.  Like everything else on boats it is a compromise.  
-Chris

[HeaveToo]

Those of us with outboards have issues with weight on the transom.  Adding rigid panels to the transom is more weight to deal with.  Yes, panels don't weight all that much but they do add more weight.

My flexible 100 watt solar panel weighs around 3 pounds.  It mounts on the bimini, which is always up when I sail.  When I am not at the boat the panel is stored in the boat.  I sometimes put up my 5 watt solar panel to trickle charge the batteries when I am gone.

Battery monitors are good, but you have to know how to use them.  I will not use a Xantrex battery monitor or Balmar battery charger because of this. 
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/programming_a_battery_monitor

If I do a battery monitor in the future it will be this one"
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/smart_gauge

[Mas]

"No Mas,  you really need to determine what you want your solar system to do then build accordingly.  Things to think about are battery bank size and configuration, panel-s location, amps you want to generate per day, how you are going to use the boat.  I wanted my 23d to be completely off grid.  I designed my system to never need shore power."

Totally agree and wish No Mas to be able to be off grid for as long as i wish. She will be kept in a marina with shore power available when not on boat. My needs are similar to yours and also HeaveToo's (he will cruise for several days) as far as bing off grid. We do have the advantage of our diesel but really don't wish to run it just to charge a battery. Rigid panels are the way to go for efficiency but i definitely am looking for storability. Putting the panel out of the sun when not needed drastically increases it's life span as well. Thinking also on the bimini, foredeck, companionway hatch, even some rigging as possible different areas to capture the most sun with a movable panel.. Clearly a panel that can be pointed is going to be way more efficient. sounds like you have a great setup. This is definitely work in progress and until i get something I am good with, the batteries will come home with me for the winter since she is on the hard and will stay there until spring.

Keep those ideas coming as i constantly am learning and other may benefit from our thread.

[HeaveToo]

Remember that any little bit of shadow has a drastic effect on what you harness.

So I sat anchored in Solomons for 4 days being holed into port with a dastardly south wind blowing 15-20 gusting higher.  I didn't feel like beating my brains out so I stayed put (looking back I think that I am just going to have to go for it one of those days as my confidence in the boat is growing). 

4 days at anchor.  I had my 100 watts of solar plugged in and charging. 

During that time I ran the anchor light every night, a 12Volt fan.  My stereo, cabin lights at night, and my small inverter (12V plug style for the laptop).  When I left Solomons Island after those 4 days I checked my charge controller about mid-day and it was a solid light indicating full.  Yep, my bank was at 100 percent.  My GPS, Stereo, Autohelm, Etc. was running off of my solar power at that point. 

Again the key word is IF, but IF I ever add some kind of refrigeration to the boat I will add a second panel. If I go to a second panel I may elect for a separate charge controller and get another Genasun GV10.  If I went to 1 controller then I would go to a Blue Sky solar controller.  I wouldn't go away from a MPPT controller. 

If money wasn't an object in my solar build and I was going with flexible panels, I would get the Soloban panels.  They are supposed to be the best you can buy and the main developer of the tech.  Money was an object so I went with a cheaper panel.  The panel is only out when the boat is out.  I have a smaller 5V trickle charger for dockside power.

I don't regret the housebank upgrade.  For about $200 I added the 2 GC2 Duracell 6V batteries with 215 amp hours.  I had a few less amp hours on my Catalina 30 and no solar and power was never an issue on that (I did charge of the 30amp alternator). 

When I wired everything in I used Marine grade wire and connectors.  This is a must.  Still, I rewired the boat for a pretty good price.

I don't have any regrets with this upgrade.  I like my panel.  I am considering integrating velcro holders into my next bimini skin so that I velcro the panel in place instead of tie it into place.

One wish is that I wish I had a stainless steel bimini frame (and dodger frame for that matter).  Still, the aluminum frame seems to be holding up fine (I sailed at the end of this season in 25 knot gusts with no issues at all).

[Mas]

Hey HeaveToo,

we will be getting refrigeration sooner (this coming summer) rather than later but it is not just for No Mas. We find ourselves off grid a lot with our land yacht (heading up into West Virginia first week of December) both camping and at festivals and frankly could use the extra refrigeration as the built in fridge is small and only refrigerates but so well if it is really hot. The Engel units will actually freeze items if wished (which is it's intended purpose for the land yacht) and they draw very little power. Have included a link. Not cheap, so that is why we must wait, I dunno, something about buying a sailboat, spending money, yadda yadda!

http://www.engelcoolers.com/acdc

Yup, sure we will be hunkered down if blowing hard, as my skills are 25 years rusty!

No Mas

[Shawn]

"Rigid panels are the way to go for efficiency but i definitely am looking for storability. Putting the panel out of the sun when not needed drastically increases it's life span as well."

I'd think a permanently mounted rigid solar panel will outlast any flexible panel that keeps being moved around. The flexing is going to potentially cause wiring failure and an aluminum frame is dramatically more UV resistant than any flexible panel. That 40w Kyocera panel I put on my 23 had a 20 year output warranty on it. Cost is also much less. On my Sabre I put a Renogy 100w panel on the boat and the panel was $149 delivered.

As far as refrigeration the Engels are supposed to be very nice. I have a Dometic CF25. It would *just* fit under the companionway on my 23/3 (lengthwise) with the storage box still in place. Compac has altered that area several times so it may not fit on all 23s. The 40w panel wasn't enough to keep the fridge running indefinitely as I was around a 5 amp/hour deficit per day. With the 100w panel on the Sabre I leave the fridge running all summer.

Shawn

[Shawn]

HeaveToo,

"15-20 gusting higher.  I didn't feel like beating my brains out so I stayed put (looking back I think that I am just going to have to go for it one of those days as my confidence in the boat is growing)."

If the boat is setup for it the 23 will handle it easily, if not you will be overpowered and fighting hard. On Serenity I sailed many times in 20+ knot with gusts higher. Double reefed main and the 'storm jib' (about 50%) with the vang tight and it was a walk in the park. Two fingers on the tiller and the boat was sailing easy.

Shawn

[Mas]

"As far as refrigeration the Engels are supposed to be very nice. I have a Dometic CF25. It would *just* fit under the companionway on my 23/3 (lengthwise) with the storage box still in place. Compac has altered that area several times so it may not fit on all 23s. The 40w panel wasn't enough to keep the fridge running indefinitely as I was around a 5 amp/hour deficit per day. With the 100w panel on the Sabre I leave the fridge running all summer."

Hey Shawn, is your 23 a Diesel? The diesel option while very nice does loose most of the storage area under the companionway. Am struggling with where it would live. Most likely, but would require always moving if head is used, is under the v berth in front of head. Have a 12v outlet there as well. Guess that's why they are Compac!

yup, found ourselves out in 20kt + winds many years ago on our little CP16 with full main, the boom roller reefing jammed and a working jib. Water was visible through the leeward port lights. My wife never said a word until we were back safe and sound, though a close call with the dock, at which time she announced she would never go again if we had to do that again. Got the reefing fixed that week and bought a 4.5 long shaft Johnson the next week. Still married (36 yrs.) and back into sailing with her blessing.