Koinoina testing the waters.

[Bob23]

  I'm toying with the idea of trading down from my beloved 1985 23/2 to a Suncat. I'm not even sure I want to but I'd like a lighter boat that's trailerable and more suited to the kind of sailing I do, which is mostly solo. I haven't sailed a Suncat but from what I read and hear, they are great boats. I really have given no thought to what my 23 is worth to a buyer and I don't know what Suncats cost but if I take this route, it'd have to be a swap with maybe a bit of cash to offset any imbalance. 
  So, if you might be interested, give a holler and reply here! And, if you are questioning my sanity, well, I'd like to hear from you too!
Thanks,
Bob23

[Shawn]

Bob,

Suncats do look like very nice boats. There is one near when I keep Serenity and we have sailed paralleling each other a few times.

Are you going to keep it on your mooring or are you consider trailer sailing it? Just think about keeping it on a mooring. As annoying as it is to paint the bottom of the keel on a 23 I'd think trying to deal with painting/cleaning a centerboard would be that much worse. Of course if you continue to have it travel lift launched you may be able to do that while it is still in the sling.

Shawn

[Bob23]

I'd probably moor it and trailer it to different waters. I haven't thought about painting in the centerboard well. I don't think I'd need to travel lift the boat- having the freedom of a trailer is enticing. I like the freedom of having a boat moored but I'd need to study the rig to make sure it can weather the sometimes high winds and accompanying wave action. With the 23, there is no doubt- she has a very strong rig.
Bob

[crazycarl]

if you are questioning my sanity, well, I'd like to hear from you too!
Thanks,
Bob23

Question YOUR sanity?  How dare we, everyone knows your completely insane!

CC

[kickingbug1]

  jacks 19 is for sale.

[Bob23]

Thanks, Carl:
   At least someone understands me!
Kick:
  Thanks, but if I make this move it will be to a Suncat. I'd rather keep my 23 than get a 19. Nothing against 19's, mind you!
Bob23

[HeaveToo]

Good Grief Bob......I have soloed much bigger boats than the 30.  I use to single hand a Catalina 30 and I had many a mile that way.  If you have the autopilot single handing is child's play. 

[Bob23]

  I have no problem single handing my 23. It's how I almost always sail. It's really the storage issue and the time spend for spring rigging and fall de-rigging. Because I'm a cheapskate, I need to be able to trailer any boat I have and the ability to launch at ramps would be a plus. With my 23, I have a marina travel lift haul and retrieve in spring and fall, respectively.
  I'm at a weird stage in life where smaller seems better. Plus I want to trailer something out to CLR 2015 and it'd take some time and money to move the 23.
  Dunno...I love my 23 but one has to be aware of the changes that inevitably come. "There is a time for every purpose under heaven". Words by God. Music by Roger McGuinn.
Bob

[jthatcher]

wow..  but then we can't call you bob23 anymore!    This is a bit of a surprise, but i certainly understand your  desire to take the boat to distant waters..    and a lighter boat would make that a much easier experience..     good luck with your decision..    if all goes well,  you will still have a friend in pa, or maine  who has a 23 to sail  , and you are welcome anytime .. soon as i get it in some water!   jt

[brackish]

Bob, I understand perfectly.  I keep thinking I need to go either smaller (in Compac speak, something with a mastender system, a light tow and a 20 minute launch to sail cycle) or go bigger, (in a slip all the time, step on and go).  I really like my 23, but it is a little too much to really trailer to those distant grounds on a regular basis,.  I actually use it like the latter, in a slip, but giving up the big advantage of that type of boat without having standing head room, enclosed head,  and a decent galley.  So that debate goes on constantly in my mind.

Of course maybe I'm also insane, a possibility the Admiral suggests often.

[HideAway]

We have been having a similar discussion recently. A 23 is a lot of boat to take care of, not to mention rigging time etc.  My admiral makes two good points.   One is that by the time I get finished with the refit I ll never want to sell it.  And two, she won't tolerate anything smaller if we are to continue cruising even though our most popular cruise is what we call the 200 Yard Cruise.  200 yards out from the marina, anchor down, Prairie Home Companion on the radio and a lost cork bottle of sailor's wine.   Besides there is only about 2 feet of the cabin that does not have standing head room

Ron - can you comment on changing from your Sea Pearl Tri to the Suncat - Matt  And yes I m jealous of the mast tender system!

[Bob23]

Thanks for all the comments, gents.
  The real problem here is that I do indeed love my 23. While she's far from perfect, we've spent 8 happy years together and I've fixed, cleaned, varnished, added, modified and also sailed with a big smile on my face. So I'm just testing the waters, so to speak. If there are any of you Suncat guys within driving distance, and I'm not too limited, I'd love for you to invite me for a sail! I'll bring the beer of your choice.
Bob23

[Ferd Johns]

Bob

I finally got a 2000 Suncat a couple of years ago. I had, like you, been fascinated from the getgo by the ease of trailering/launching/rigging, and just plain "KISS". She had been rode hard and put up wet, so I spent almost the entire first season working on her. Issues I found by "rebuilding" the boat primarily revolved around the stainless steel centerboard trunk. The boat had been kept on a mooring in salt water during the sailing season. The bilge was a cesspoool of rusty water. The centerboard bolt was bent, and one of the washers had been replaced with a mild steel version, which was almost completely gone. The rubber gaskets were hard. There was obviously a leak in the trunk flange. On these early boats, the entire assembly including the trunk is fabricated from stainless steel, with a wide outward turning flange around the opening for the board. A slot is cut into the bottom of the fiberglass keel so the entire assembly can be inserted and the flange bolted in, using 5200, I guess. Then the concrete ballast is simply poured into the keel, forming itself around the forward part of the stainless trunk. So, with a moored boat, we have stainless steel immersed in a salt water solution, with copper bottom paint nearby (or perhaps actually applied to the stainless?), and in the bilge, stainless steel and concrete in contact immersed in bilgewater.  It didn't take much to start that insidious corrosion that naturally occurs in stainless steel that is deprived of air (constantly submerged), and the centerboard trunk leaked. I replaced all of the bad stuff, assiduously cleaned everything, etched and re-passivated the stainless, used G-Flex on the exposed flange/fasteners that are permanently exposed at the bottom of the keel, used Gluv-It to encapsulate and seal the exposed trunk and fasteners in the bilge, and put her back together. So, the lesson: Maybe not the best boat to leave on a salt-water mooring, unless extraordinary preventative measures are taken. Perhaps better suited to trailersailing (what she was designed for). Cannot speak to later models, which have a molded fiberglass trunk, but the stainless board (and flange?) will still be submerged in salt water at your mooring. My research says stainless will corrode if deprived of exposure to the air. So that is the main issue I see.

The boat is a great solo cruiser. Not quite sitting headroom for me, but an easy slouch to read leaning against the companion bulkhead in the wonderfully wide-open berths (I'm claustrophobic). Decent stowage, especially in the cockpit lockers, and a pretty good head arrangement. Cooler must be small, and either stowed in a cockpit locker or on the cabin sole (unless, of course, some Nemo-like modification is made). It is awfully tight for two on a long cruise unless you are far more hairshirt than my usual cruising companions! I really enjoy the simplicity of sailing this boat (a foiled rudder and decent sails really help), and had little problem getting used to the gaff cat rig. She powers beautifully (I added a Catalina Designs folding motor bracket and a Tohatsu Sail-Pro) as well. For perspective, I also own an Eclipse. More complicated, same issues with the constantly submerged stainless centerboard (although the trunk is fiberglass), a bit harder to rig/tow/launch, but a good bit more room for two cruising. Still, nowhere near the volume and headroom you have in your 23, and, although arguably the easiest sloop to rig and launch, still a good bit harder to deal with at the ramp than the SunCat.

Not meaning to throw any cold water on your idea, as I really love my SunCat, but wanted to pass on my unvarnished experience, both good and not so good.

Good luck with your call.

Best,

Ferd

[Craig]

Having had a Suncat and now a Horizon Cat, a couple comments. I think that stainless will hold up just fine in a saltwater environment(Kailani resides in saltwater year round) so long as one pays close attention to the sacrificial anodes(zincs). After all, what about all the boats with cast iron swing keels 20-30 yrs old? The newer boats have addressed some of the earlier design issues. Of course, since the Suncat is so easy to haul it would not be much trouble to monitor what is going on from time to time during the season if you have any angst. Actually the Horizon is not much harder,if any, to trail (other than size/weight difference).Raising/lowering the mast is still a piece of cake and if you use the built-in gin pole system, can be done from the cockpit. Ferd is right re Suncat acommodations. Fine for one longer term, two overnight. That being said, rigging a boom tent or even better a, fully enclosed cockpit tent ala Ontario Suncat who has cruised the Great Lakes with his wife for a number of years, can really expand living space. We loved our Suncat and primarily went to the Horizon to have the convenience of the electric start diesel as well as a little more cockpit space for guests(not to mention our marina has a 20' minimum charge for slips anyway). The Suncat is probably the easiest and prettiest seaworthy sailboat package you can find. As Capt Nemo can attest there are many simple ways to modify the boat for performance and comfort if you so desire. Oh,and by the way, no problem changing your username. Simple, Bob23 becomes Bobcat! LOL

[Ferd Johns]

Really good advice from Craig .... to temper my scary caveat. You might want to read the following about corrosion in stainless---- http://www.estainlesssteel.com/corrosion.shtml. But I think the advice about zincs and regular inspection are very well taken. I believe the leaks that developed in my assembly were probably crevice corrosion between fasteners and the flange. Stainless really doesn't like to be oxygen deprived. I first discovered that a couple of decades ago when the (originally) thick stainless plate that held my O'Day 23 centerboard in the keel practically dissolved. So I knew about the issue, and still bought a SunCat!

For easy sailing, pain-free towing/rigging/launching, and laid-back, comfortable cruising, nothing beats a SunCat ..... at least in my experience.

Best,

Ferd