New Owner near Rochester NY

[FireDrill]

Hello fellow SunCat owners!  See my posting "New SunCat owner in Central NewYork" in the Lounge section.  Was not sure which place to post it.. here or there? Have been reading your postings for 2 years and find them extremely helpful.!     

Looking forward to participating more fully now...!!!

[Bob23]

Hi Don and welcome!
   Lurking for 2 years? That's a long time and I'm afraid it's gonna cost you. In addtion to the $5000.00 initiation fee (payable in cash only to me) there is a lurking fee of $250.00 per year. But you seem like a nice guy so I'm willing to waive the lurking fee if you pay me in cash by the end of the week. If not, well, I'm in NJ and my cousins Danny, Vito and Guido might have to pay you a visit.
   Looking forward to your contributions. With all those years of experience under your keel, I bet you have some tales to tell. Again, welcome!
Bob23 and "Koinonia" 1985 23/2 in Ocean County, NJ

[capt_nemo]

FireDrill,

Welcome, again, to the home of the Sun Cat Owners. Glad to have you in the Sun Cat Family.

As an Owner (and engineer) who has designed, fabricated, and installed several mods to 2010 Sun Cat "Frisky", I'm interested in any ideas you may have once you've had a chance to really get to know the boat.

capt_nemo

[rogerschwake]

Ahoy Don,
 Welcome to the Sun Cat club. This is the third summer for me and this boat does everything I hoped it would. I have said this before but jack lines make the boat a lot easier to sail. Make the jack lines adjustable from the cockpit and you can use them for a topping lift also, this keeps the boom from hitting the boom gallows. The first thing I'd put on my wish list is a autopilot, really makes single handing easy, real helpful when raising and lowering sail. Good luck and use this sight if you have any questions.

ROGER

[capt_nemo]

What Roger meant to say was that "Lazy Jacks" make the boat a lot easier to sail.

"Jack Lines" are those lines rigged temporarily from bow to stern that folks hook onto when wearing harnesses and traversing the side and fore decks in a blow.

capt_nemo

[rogerschwake]

Thanks Capt. Nemo for the correction, I guess I'm getting a little lazy as I'm getting older and need a little help now and again. We sure want to get these sailors new to Sun Cats started on the wright foot.

ROGER

[FireDrill]

Thank you all for the kind welcome.. Bob, 5K is pretty steep - I know one has to pay the piper.....!  However I have family and "friends" in new Jersey too...(e.g. Hoboken and not the singing nuns!)  Perhaps our friends may cut a deal! 

Regarding Lazy Jacks -  Roger, thanks for you concern for me as a new owner .... you are sooo right...I got that message loud and clear in my reading of this site before I got my SunCat,  so it was the first thing I added... last year when my boat arrived.  Also added the jiffy reefing line at the tack, and the throat downhaul, a boom vang and mid ship cleats......all great tips from reading up last year... This site has so many learned sailors that I never had to ask a question directlyas I got my boat ready, just typed stuff into the search engine and presto there was the answer! (Hence my voyeurism)

I understand your point, Roger,  about the autopilot.   When single handing,  hoisting the sail in high gusty wind and waves one needs a hand for the throat halyard, the peak halyard and third one for the tiller (In lighter wind,  nudges to the tiller via foot or quick of hand and my homemade tiller clutch - ala Bob Burgess's book -  has worked pretty well ). But I gave up the other day - winds at 13 gusting to 26+ (I learned later)  and 1-2 foot waves.  Will have to practice this situation  more while I  start looking for real autopilot and saving up... anyone ever see a reasonable used one on E-Bay or elsewhere?  Do you have any suggestions as to models and attachment methods.  Also very interested in techniques anyone may have  for doing this without autopilot while I save up - it may be a while!   (With my previous boats it was one halyard at a time and this weather was not so challenging ) Perhaps alternating one hand between the two halyards would have worked better, but this requires dexterity, that may have left a few years ago,  especially with the clutches forward on the cabin !.  Comments?

[Bob23]

My friends just spoke with your friends and the deal's been made. Glad we could see eye to eye so early on. Again, welcome! 
Bob 23

[capt_nemo]

FireDrill,

Raising sail in moderate to heavy winds can be a tricky situation.

Since I sail solo most of the time, and don't enjoy the luxury of a crew member at the tiller and motor, I've developed a technique which essentially amounts to DOING ONE THING AT A TIME! And, at my age, it is probably the smartest (and safest) thing to do even if it is a little difficult at times.

First thing I do when I reach the point where I want to raise sail is cut the engine, raise it up, and tilt it for sailing. RELEASE THE TILLER AND FORGET ABOUT IT FOR AWHILE. LOWER THE CENTERBOARD.

Then it is time to raise sail, so I double check that my masthead topping lift, led to the cockpit, is tensioned properly to support the boom and stowed main'sl.

Mainsheet tackles on both sides are UNLOCKED and sheets allowed to RUN FREE.

All sail ties are removed with the last one being that which holds the gaff.

Not absolutely necessary, but try to position the boat so she is on starboard tack with boom and sail out of the way and free access to the halyards.

Start raising sail up slightly (gaff parallel to boom) allowing the boom and mainsheet to run free. Use the tiller momentarily if necessary to help maintain the desired boat position. Otherwise, continue raising both halyards until the THROAT halyard is at full hoist. Continue to raise the peak halyard a bit to get the gaff pointing upward and lock it in the clutch but don't worry about final adjustment just yet.

Grab the boom downhaul, snug it up and cleat off to tighten the bottom of the main'sl.

Now it is time to regain mainsheet and tiller control. Pull in and lock mainsheet(s) to achieve some effective sail shape and get the boat moving.

Check upper sail shape and adjust tension on the Peak Halyard as required.

About those clutches forward on the cabin top. One of the first things I did on my Sun Cat was to relocate those two forward halyard clutches to the aft end of the starboard cabin top. This will necessitate adding line controls or fairleads of your choice at the old position of clutches to provide a good lead to the relocated clutches in their new positions. I used the heavy black nylon fairleads and tried to use some of the holes from the removed clutches.

When in doubt with heavy winds I tie in a reef at the ramp before launching. Easy to shake out if not needed.

Hope this helps.

capt_nemo

[FireDrill]

Capt_nemo - Thanks for the detailed response.  I will try your procedure next time.. Perhaps in lower wind to practice first..  I would use my lazy jacks (LJ)  as topping lift (designed  to just hold end of gaff up when lowered - at top it is mounted halfway between shroud tangs and masthead, cleated on boom near midship - handy to cockpit )  Do you see any problem with that? (Hard to adjust after swung to port but would be properly tensioned first.   Also LJ can catch an occasional batten on the way up - should I move aft end of LJ forward a bit? )

I too was thinking of moving the clutches but do not like drilling holes in fiberglass, especially if I find a weak spot and need to start over.  Any idea of where it is thick/strong fiberglass/core- cabin liner masks discovering this.. Can one use holes for factory installed cleats that could  be discarded? Or are cleats needed as backup to clutches? These clutches are new design for me - not sure how reliable/strong. Seems like they are too easily released for halyards.

I also noted in your picture of the aft end of cabin (in another thread)  that cleats/clutches and other hardware are mounted on a flat bar at the end of cabin top.  What materials did you use and how/where is it attached to cabin top? Looks like a great idea!

[capt_nemo]

FireDrill,

Adjust your Lazy Jacks as you see fit for ease of use and non interference with raising sail. Mine are two legged Bungee Cord based and are stowed on the forward end of the boom just abaft the mast until needed. Then I simply lean way forward in the companionway and grab them for positioning prior to lowering main'sl. They are never in the way.

Ordered my Sun Cat without cleats mounted on cabin top or bulkhead top. The Spinlock Clutches alone do a fine job of controlling the halyards.

I knew that I would be adding lines and line controlling hardware but didn't want to drill so many holes in the cabin top only to find that I wanted to change something. So, I designed and installed a removable module both port and starboard upon which I could mount hardware and change if necessary to my heart's content. For each side I used two short lengths of aluminum angle aligned fore and aft each of which were thru bolted on the aft end of the cabin top with two (2) ¼"X20 bolts which would NEVER BE REMOVED. The wood, fabricated curved to match the cabin top consisted of two pieces of ¼" ply laminated together to achieve a strong base. Two short  lengths of aluminum angle were bolted to the UNDERSIDE of the wood base. The aluminum angles on the cabin top are joined to the aluminum angles on the underside of the base and each through bolted with 2 short ¼"X20 bolts.

These photos provide a look at the finished product which works quite well. Don't let my homemade Nylon Main'sl and Nylon Drifter in the first photo distract you.

capt_nemo

[gray]

Welcome to another northern Suncat.
I sail up on Lake Champlain and echo the advantages of lazy jacks. I installed bugee versions a la Capt_Nemo and they are great except for one snag. Maybe Don can help me with this? They often get caught up on the pin on the front of the mast - the pin which holds the mast in position! Then I have to scamper up to the front to free them - not a pretty site if it is blowing!
I am also very interested in any recomendations for a boom vang - I have always felt the need for one when going downwind in anything over 15 knots?
Lastly on the subject of raising the sail.  I have never tried the Capt_Nemo method but have had no problem with the following.
Keep motor running slowly while heading into the wind. Lock tiller lock. Drop centerboard and raise sail as per Don's instuctions. Kill motor and raise and tilt. Grab mainsheet and enjoy your voyage!
Cheers
Graham on sv Nemo (no relation!)

[capt_nemo]

gray,

If the Lazy Jack bungees are loose (lots of slack), the wind may carry them forward to snag on whatever.

Two Choices:

Tighten the bungee cords up a bit so they stay abaft the mast and gooseneck within easy reach.

OR

Use an existing piece of hardware on the boom to temporarily secure them somehow abaft the mast until ready for use. Absent any available hardware, consider mounting a small stainless hook, or the like, on the side or under the boom to serve to keep them in "ready" position yet out of the way when raising sail.

Better yet - A short light line secured to a main foot sail slug would do for starters as a VERY CHEAP AND EASY FIX! (to secure the Jacks with a slip knot)

I've had to tighten mine and/or replace the bungee cord when it becomes stretched too much.

capt_nemo

[FireDrill]

Thanks for the welcome from Lake Champlain.  I love that lake with its many interesting and beautiful anchorages but I only used a chartered Hunter 28 out of Burlington twice to explore it with a sailing buddy..not a SunCat (too far for my trailering range when I had my Freedom 21 and a trailering copilot).  Currently trying to stay within 2 hrs of Rochester with the SunCat - mostly single handing.  I have seen accounts of others sailing SunCats on Champlain... I am jealous!

Regarding a boom vang, I somewhat cloned what I had on my Freedom 21 but with lower cost, lighter hardware for the SunCat. (Hardware cost about $150)  I mounted a Ronstan Series 40 Fiddle about 18 inches below the SunCat hinge and therefore below all the other hardware.   Its shackle goes through an eye strap screwed into the slot on the base of the mast (#10 screws, up and down orientation) A Ronstan series 40  fiddle/becket/cam is mounted via another eye strap on the bottom of the boom about 36 inches aft of the mast, with the cam cleat facing aft.  This insures I can reach it from the companionway to adjust, set or release it. It is therefore closer to a 30/60 degree vang than a classic 45 degree one.    It is a 4:1 purchase with,  I believe, 5/16" StaSet type braid line. It allows for the forward hatch to open all the way. 4:1 may be overkill but the hardware was available and cost less than a commercially configured small 3:1 system (West Marine).  It has worked well both at preventing a couple of bad accidental gybe situations and at some control of sail shape, especially important with the aft mainsheet system.   However, I am just getting to know the SunCat and have not experienced any really heavy air sailing like you mention. One caution is you need to keep track of the extra line and uncleating/cleating during mast raising and sail raising.

Thanks for the sail raising comments.   My failed attempt  came about during gusty winds - well over 20-25 mph with large and varying waves and whitecaps using  a similar method to yours  but a shock corded tiller "lock" (The Robert Burgess method from his Handbook of Trailer Sailing).. It had worked in lower winds and lower waves... This time the boat direction was  changing way too much.  Perhaps less (or no)  shock cord with careful tuning of balance and experimenting with the locked heading  would have helped me let go of the tiller.  I am going to explore Capt_nemo's method as well (and also save up for an autopilot long term !). I am curious which tiller lock you use, if you have any shock cord in it  and in what winds/waves  you feel you can single handedly raise the sails.   I know Champlain can really create challenging wind and waves and do it suddenly! What part of the Lake do you sail in mostly? 

Capt_nemo..Thanks for the description of your cabin top hardware mounting system.  Brilliant!  I am not in need of that much hardware right now  but I may be shortly.    I was indeed distracted by the drifter and mainsail parts of the picture.  I have been observing  your use of Jibs and drifters on this site since last year and am hoping to make a 38 sq ft drifter like yours using parts of my old ripped spinnaker via the local sail-loft if the price and advice is right... Reason:  2 and 3 knot winds here many days this summer were discouraging.  I had a jib like stay sail and  the use of a spinnaker as a drifter on my Freedom for just such days,  so I can see the value for the SunCat. I am curious about the flying vs hanked-on decision  for your 38 sq. ft.drifter?

[capt_nemo]

FireDrill,

Setting my homemade 38 sq ft Nylon Drifter "flying" had a distinct advantage.

With the halyard conveniently led aft, after experimentation and practice I was able to change the sail's shape OFF THE WIND by adjusting halyard and sheet tension. For example, on a broad reach releasing the halyard a bit allowed the luff of the sail to cup. This, together with releasing the sheet a bit created a sail shape that really took advantage of the wind and point of sail. When close to "running", further releasing of halyard and sheet provided a spinnaker-like shape and the sail rotated out in front of the forestay. A hanked on Drifter does not allow such control of sail shape.

If you definitely go the Nylon Drifter route, contact me for tips on sheet fairlead/cam cleats and how to avoid sheets fouling.

IN LIGHT AIR NYLON IS KING!

capt_nemo