National Sails, New sails?

[MacGyver]

I did search the forums, so dont worry, My head is filled with all sorts of information.

What I am wanting to know is how well the sails from national have held up, and how long of a period you have had them.
Also, Does anyone have the dimensions for the mainsail (CP19/3) ? That is the sail I am thinking about maybe buying first, so I can see the difference new sails have to offer before replacing others.

Lastly, any recommendations to put on the sail? I will be primarily Carlyle Lake, so no big deal, and planned to do the standard battens, 1 reef, etc..... Any help is appreciated, because when it comes to sails, I know little to nothing about them.....

I was thinking of building my own, through sailrite, but it seems like maybe it is the same price to have them made....

Thanks,
Mac

[mattman]

Mac, have them built for you and you will be happier with both a new main and jib at the same time( if money allows). I would call a few lofts and talk with them. I used JSI Doyle Plock, they give you a measurement from to fill out which is quite detailed. I will try to get you a copy on here. The one designs over a CSA often use North, Quantum, Uk, and Mad which is also carrying Ulman. For cruising the Doyles are a nice sail. If I had a speedier boat I would likely go Uk, I had them on a previous boat and would consistently sail better than my phrf, but a bit more pricey. Matt

[mattman]

Mac, check your email. Matt.

[wes]

Mac - I've had my National sails for almost three years and I'm still very happy with them. They are holding up well. I do remove my boom with sail attached and store it in the cabin when not sailing, to keep it out of the sunlight (for me this is about as fast as putting on a sail cover, and it's less prone to become a vacation home for wasps and spiders). I ordered my main with two reefs (cheap insurance) and standard battens. Wouldn't change a thing.

I got my genoa with a sacrificial white UV strip because I don't care for the color and extra weight of Sunbrella. The downside is it will periodically need replacement. After two years out in the sun I had the genoa cleaned and inspected by a local shop. They told me the UV strip was showing signs of wear but probably had another year of life left. Replacing the strip is not expensive.

You will not have to measure - they have the 19/3 dimensions on file. My new main and 150% genoa cost around $900 total. A year later I bought a 110 genoa for heavier air, also from National. Service is very good, price is excellent, quality is very good - what's not to like?

I'm about to order new sails from National for the 27.

Wes

[Gerry]

National Sails are the best, least expensive and they have all of the Com-pac dimensions on file.

[Lafayette Bruce]

Mac
I have thought about making my own as well and then when I get into it seems like Sailrite prices are high and for an extra 10 or 15% it can be factory made and remove the risk of my making a mistake and the time commitment of putting it together.  (Parts of me would like to challenge Sailrite on their pricing.) 
The weight of fabric and the care you take of the sail are both huge in determining their longevity.  A couple things to put in your think tank as you are chewing on this:
- Standard reefs in the main sail are put in at 15 and 30%.  This does not have to be the rule.  I had mine put in at 10 and 20% because I thought the original reefs were too drastic.
- I would strongly recommend slugs for the luff so when the sail comes down it doesn't spill all over the deck.  I have not installed lazy jacks because I didn't want to extra system to take care of and I think the slugs do a good enough job at keeping the sail collected.
- I love my loose footed main.  Makes a big difference in light air.
- Noticing that my boom had some extra unused length, I chose to make my sail foot about 6" longer than stock sail size and I have not been sorry one bit.
- To furl or hank a headsail is an huge topic of discussion.  My opinion is I like to have my foredeck clear as I am coming to an anchorage or dock and hanked sails don't do that.  I agree that a furled sail will not perform as well but I figure if I have so much wind that I need to furl then I will be able to get close to hull speed even with a poorly shaped sail.
- If you are going furler on the headsail something to consider is a sock instead of a Sunbrella sacrificial panel.  Going with the sock removes weight aloft and makes replacing the sacrificial portion easy... just buy a new sock, or make one.
I purchased my main from Bacon and only because they would take some older headsails I had and credit my account.  I would not recommend them for new sail purchases because they lost my order a couple times.  Sail quality was good, once I finally got it.
My genoa came from National and I am quite pleased with it but it is only a year old.
Keep us posted on your thought process and decisions.
Lafayette Bruce

[deisher6]

Hey Mac:
Bought National sails for our C-16, great service, fair price and very much liked the sails.  However I question the stock sizes that they have for C-16's.

I posted pictures of old and new jobs here:

171     Model Specific Forums / CP-16's / Re: jib dilema

They did not match up well.  Were I to order again I would specify the sizes.  This may be just a C16 problem with  and  without bowsprit.  Just my two cents worth.

I am considering C27 sails from National.

regard charlie

[wes]

Charlie - I've just placed my order for the CP 27 sails with National. Two reefs in the mainsail, "2+2" batten configuration (two full battens on top, two partial on bottom); 135% genoa with white sacrificial Dacron UV protection strips (not Sunbrella). Cost around $1900 for the pair.

If you have comments on this configuration, please let me know. I have no sailing experience with the 27 yet. It came with no headsail and a worn out main.

Wes

[kickingbug1]

   jason, i think i told you i have a tasker on my cp16. i have had it for two years and it fits perfectly and really helped performance.

[MacGyver]

I greatly appreciate everyones input. This is a big decision for me and to be honest, one of the few things I have knowledge on with sailboats.

I have called Dirk at National Sail, and I must say it was not as good as a experience as I thought I would have had.... First I sent a email and got a price back on a Mainsail. I thought since I was just looking at $430 that wasnt too bad, so why not call him and ask him what his stock sizes were for a headsail, like did he have plans for a 110, 135 and 155, or what...

That is where things went bad..... First off, there was a delay in the phone conversation, and it wasnt till a 1/3rd of the phone call completed, which was mainly "hello? " and "Yes, Jason??" and "can you hear me??"

We were off and running once I realized I had to wait to talk until I received his reply.... I am sure it was awkward for him as well..... He ended that I needed to send my sails to him so he could measure them...... NOT something I really wanted to do, because if any issues I had no actual guarantee that I would have sails back, not to mention the cost to send them to him and back just for pricing to start things......

I decided to search on the net and found NORTH SAILS which I am hugely familiar with. Through North Sails Direct, whose number on the site has issues, but through the email setup I got to talk to Brad, who was amazing with his knowledge. The mainsail built the same will cost me 80 dollars more. So around $500. Same OZ fabric, same setup.

I talked with Brad about my plans with the boat and he talked me through quite a bit, and even agreed that If I was to only purchase the MAIN that I would see a difference, if I wanted to get by for a while then get Roller furling.
We discussed every aspect of the sail options, and I learned a ton making me feel more confident in North Sails than that of National.

I really felt that NORTH might have been 2 times the price, but at that close range, I am tempted to buy NORTH.

The setup I am looking at is a New Mainsail, possibly with 2 full battens (top 2) and 2 partials (bottom 2). This he felt would be good for the sail shape, and splits the difference. We talked at length about the custom cut lazy jacks on my boat and Reefs, etc.
The headsail, we talked about that I should buy a FF2 ball bearing system. install a 140 with a rope luff reefing pad and patches. I was a little confused exactly what that is, as I dont think I have ever seen it before.... but when I reef I should have great sail shape at those points. I would also have a dacron cover, not sunbrella due to the sun not being hugely a issue here in his opinion. (I am unsure how I feel about no sunbrella, as I typically like a color to be seen on the headsail, looks nicer to me and you can see that no sail is showing when wrapped.) Brad did say that If I could send my sails to him that was cool, then he could scale up what I had and double check to their measurements but that wasn't really necessary.

The price on that headsail would be less than 700 bucks.

I am still debating with my wife, and I am posting this to see what you all think.
I am also curious if anyone has ever ordered from SAILBOATOWNERS.com
They have the furler for the 19 at $440 bucks...... which is a steal. The NORTH guy couldnt get too close to that, his was $509

Sound off Gentlemen, I definitely want to hear what you all think. This is a big deal to me. I might have to buy the main seperate from the headsail option just because I want to buy one style of headsail, not buy a new hank on then a year later replace it with roller furling. And changing the hank sail over to furl is not a cost worthy idea.

Mac

[Bob23]

Mac:
   I can't comment on your dilemna with National as I haven't dealt with them although a number of guys here have. My own sailmaker was a local guy here in NJ, Eggers Sailmakers, who insisted on measuring not only my old sails but the boat as well. I can comment on a few things in your post:
   Luff pad is a good idea when you go with roller furling. It'll help maintain a proper shape as you reef your headsail. I'm quite happy with mine.
   In discussing the Sunbrella protective strip vs a cover, I decided to go with a genoa sock in nearly the same color as my current main cover. Sure it needs to be hauled down before sailing and back up at the end of the day but I felt I could achieve a slightly better headsail shape with a sock. I think it's made my ATN. It has weathered the last 4 years well, never come loose and protecting the sail from the sun is important for everyone, not just us saltwater guys. I suppose a sail could last forever if you could prevent UV rays from every touching it and you could keep the wind from ever blowing it out of shape. To achieve both, it would have to remain in the sailbag!
   I thought it important, although not neccesary to purchase both sails new at the same time. Same exact fabric, same maker, same insignias.
  As far as winning the debate with your wife, maybe your'e a better debater than me because I rarely win. For me it's usually "Yes, dear. Of course, dear. Well, your'e right again, dear...." You get the idea.
  Sounds like your bad experience with National could be due to something as simple as a bad phone connection. I personally was willing to spend more and deal with a local and very reputable sailmaker who had firsthand knowledge with my local sailing conditions and I'm very pleased with Eggers. In retrospect, knowing what I know now, I may have gone with a loose footed main and the two upper battens would be full. Oh well, next set!
   Good luck with the hunt for new sails! Sounds like you wanna have 'em in time for CLR?
Bob23

[crazycarl]

when i purchased the new main for my 15' daysailer, i went with FX sails.  the sail the p.o. used was obviously too large for the boat and i measured for the new main using the form on their site.

when i was looking to purchase new tanbark sails for the starwind 19, national's price beat everyone.

dirk told me the easiest way was to send him the old sails.  because they where so stretched, i didn't feel comfortable with this.  dirk then talked me through the measurement process and stayed on the phone while while i climbed onto the boat and measured for the main and the furling genoa.  then he had me measure a second time to make sure i did it correctly.

the new tanbark main had 2 reefs, slugs, and full battens.  the genoa was a 150 for a cdi furler.

they fit and looked great, and dirk even called me to make sure the fit was proper.

bottom line, $ doesn't matter if your not comfortable with the person dealing with.

cc

[philb Junkie19]

Yes sending in old sails may be good or not so.  I would have been very disappointed if my '86 16II sails were duplicated. I measured them a few days ago and got a surprise. The original Johnson main and jib measured out at 61, including the roach, and 47 sq feet for a total of 108 sq ft..  After taking taking a rough first measurement and scratching my head I went back and stretched them out tight with nails at the corner groments on a fairly new bare plywood floor with both the plywood joint lines and a 4 ft drywall square to check for 90 degree angles.  I thought I had the listed 120ft with the the posted 65 ft main and a 110 jib. It set out past the mast, and a bit past even with the the shrouds.

[mattman]

Mac, you are on the right track, call a couple other lofts, and get a comparison. I have never had anyone ask to measure or see the old sails unless they worry that you won't get the correct measurements off the boat. I guess they could scale them back with a formula or percentage just to make sure that 179" isn't transposed to 197".  Best of luck. Matt.

[sailen69]

Mac,

I have spent hours looking at web sites searching for information and pricing for sails.  I will be in the market for a new set of sails one of these days.  Reading about others experiences, suggestions, lessons learned is certainly helpful.

Kickingbugs' furler is the best homemade furler I have seen.  I have a CDI FF2 with ball bearings and a 150 genoa on my 22.  The boat came with the FF2.  I added the ball bearings.

http://www.msogphotosite.com/MSOG/pdfpage/ff2manual.pdf

The system is simple, robust for trailering, and works well.  Once I bend the headsail on in the spring, I keep it on until I put the boat up for the winter.  Every spring I clean, inspect, and lubricate the system with Sailkote.  I do not have the luff pads on my genoa and wish I did.  I think it would defiantly help with sail shape with a reefed head sail.  The CDI FF2 is not hard to bend sails on or remove sails but this is something you would do dockside or in the driveway, preferably on a calm day.  I think a 140 with luff pads would be a good all-around head sail on a furler for the sailing around Carlyle and most places in this part of the country.

I use a Sunbrella sock over the head sail when at the dock or mast down on the trailer.  I feel the sock does a better job protecting the sail from wind, rain, and sun without the weight of Sunbrella sewn on the sail.  The sock will be easier to replace if needed.

Good luck with your sails and thanks to all for sharing your experience.

Rich