Interior renovation ideas

[zigguratzero]

Hello all,

Part of the appeal of a shopping around for me is to visualize how I could configure and use a given sailboat. (I'm in the market for a Compac 23, but I have yet to make the purchase.) It's not easy for me to go out and see Compacs nearby since I live in NY and don't own a car (I'll be moving soon). However this hasn't stopped me from planning and naturally, being an architect, I made a 3D model to help visualize what I wanted to do. Anyway I wanted to hear what you guys think. Here's what I have so far:









Companionway wall. The original storage box/step is nice for its functionality, but to me it seems like it could be improved. If we remove the original box and add a nicely veneered plywood wall that continues all the way to the floor, it would create a more defined sense of space. It also means we could add a nice classic looking set of steps. Behind the wall could be shelves that would have provide a large amount of storage. It looks like the wall could possibly be made of a single 4x8 sheet of plywood.










Tables. This companionway wall could also be a solution to the problem of not having a good place to put a table. With this design we could have two small and very simple tables that could rotate out when needed.









Galley. The slide out galley is nice, but it seems like it would be a constant obstacle for anyone or anything in those berths. And it seems like a more permanently mounted galley would be more functional than one that slides. Also, I'm 6'2" and I've read on this forum that that's pushing it for sleeping in the V-berth. In addition to this, I think the vast majority of the time it would only be my wife and I staying overnight on the boat. With all of this in mind, I thought, why not utilize that V-berth as a galley/head/storage area? There would still be room for one person to sleep in the V-berth.









Sliding doors. Sliding doors at the bulkhead would add convenient privacy for the V-berth area, especially when using the head. And the sink would be conveniently nearby for hand washing. The woodwork for the doors could be unobtrusive and could be laid right on top of the existing bulkhead. Of course, a plywood with a nice veneer to match the rest of the woodwork would be used.





















This model was created using the plan and elevation of the Compac 23 that can be found all over the internet. I also determined a few dimensions, such as head height, by reading this forum. I did the work for my own purposes, but I thought I would share with this enlightened and resourceful crowd. If I can inspire a few people, then great, and if I can be inspired by your feedback, well that would be great too. Please give your honest opinions, I'm an architect by trade so I'm used to my work being trashed!





Hi-res images can be found here:
http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/zigguratzero/library/


Also, here's a couple of links to posts on this forum that gave me a few ideas:

Topic: Galley thoughts
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=3644.0

Topic: Heavily Modded CP23
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=203.0




Update 1: "Interior Renovation Ideas, Part 2" has been added to this post (on the next page).
Update 2: Relinked the images to Photobucket. Originally used Imgur, but I think those delete themselves after six months.

[Shawn]

Couple of potential problems with the storage behind the steps...

First, I think the side walls are structural in supporting the floor of the cockpit.
Second, the top section of that area houses the electrical system and behind that is the manual bilge pump mounted to the cockpit floor. I think you have a little over 16" from the floor before you run into all of that. Once you take away the height of the quarter berths it doesn't leave  much room to access from the sides. I think you will end up having less storage that what the boat has factory.

"Tables. This companionway wall could also be a solution to the problem of not having a good place to put a table. "

The factory setup is decent, esp. if that table is made a bit smaller. Storage of the table is easy, it fits above the storage area under the companionway step above the storage box. Another option would be a slide over and down table attached to the bulkhead.

"Also, I'm 6'2" and I've read on this forum that that's pushing it for sleeping in the V-berth. "

I'm 6'5" and sleep in the v berth. It is a tight fit (head wedged in the corner) but the quarter berths are way to narrow for my shoulders due to the cabinets and I tend to sleep on my side curled a little. Can't do that with the width and the tunnel your legs end up in. The chain locker (in front of the V berth) is actually two separate storage areas... the chain locker forward and an empty storage area behind that and then the chain locker bulkhead that is at the front of the V berth. If you removed that second storage area and pushed the bulkhead forward it would give more leg room in the V berth.

I am going the other way and setting up a boom tent to sleep on an air mattress in the cockpit on decent nights. Should be much more comfortable.

Shawn

[MacGyver]

And that is why years ago I wanted to become a architect......
Then we moved south and I changed my ideals because the market for them isnt in the area.......

I am fascinated by the designs, great job. Having ideas is fantastic, keeps the mind young.

Do some stuff for a CP 19 and help a guy out..... LOL

Keep your ideas dynamic, and when you do get one, you could utilize these ideas in the field making minor adjustments to the plan as you go.

Again, Great job! Really cool

Mac

[zigguratzero]

Shawn, thanks for the honest feedback! You've got me thinking.

I could add some structure behind the steps, depending on the structural requirements. I would definitely contact an expert (maybe someone at Compac) to verify that one. I found this image online of a stripped Compac 23 - it looks like there is quite a bit of room down there. Admittedly though, I'm a little fuzzy on how the manual bilge pump fits in. Not sure if that's a deal breaker or not. It seems like the electrical system could be relocated relatively easily though.



As for the table, it sounds like you've made the table work more effectively than some other people on this forum. It could be that your way is the simplest and most elegant solution. But there is still the problem of not being able to access the V-berth while the table is in place. But maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Also it's great to hear that you are able to make the V-berth work at 6'5". I too have quite the wingspan when sleeping, so I was disappointed to hear that the V-berth had a height problem. Your idea about modifying the storage area is very compelling - it sounds like the V-berth could be made to work no matter what. I think I need to try a few new options...



Mac, thanks for the encouragement. You're absolutely right, none of this is set in stone and it could very well all change once I get my hands on a boat.

And I know what you mean about the lack of a market for architecture in the South, only I had the opposite problem - I was born and raised in the South but was forced to flee north in search of employment!

As for the CP 19, stay tuned - my wife just might convince me to get something smaller!

[Bob23]

Hi Zig:
  I have a 1985 23/2 and have made some interior modifications as well so I'll offer a few comments. The slide out stove does not interfere with sleeping in the side berth. The big problem with my factory set up was that it didn't slide out far enough so I made a 42" long slide out table which gives more than ample room for the stove and work space.
  The 3-d images give the 23's interior more of a spacious feel than it really has. I don't know if there is actual room for doors to the forward area to be installed. That being said,  there is a lot of usable room down there. One thing not to screw with is the existing bulkhead...it is indeed structural.
  Getting to your shelves behind the wall at the companoinway steps would require being a contortionist. The existing set up works great and give good access to the bilge and thus the bilge pump. Your drawing shows 2 steps. You really only need the one step that the factory designed. It works fine. I agree there is room for improvement in this area but I'm not sure that your idea is a good improvement.
  Over the years, Compac has changed the interior of the 23 slightly. While I'm no authority, I did view the interior of a 1983 vs my 1985. World of difference. Much more wood and usable room in my 85.
  Another thing I didn't like about your drawing was the galley forward but that might be a personal thing for me. I'd rather have it near the companionway for safety although it is under the forward hatch for ventilation.  
  A few things I have done: I removed the lift off covers to the side storage areas and replaced them with sliding doors done in opague fiberglass panels in frames made of Cumaru. The Cumaru matched the teak almost exactly. Lifting off the panel each time I wanted to get something was awkward so the sliding doors made sense. Plus the opague fiberglass made it feel a bit bigger down there. The upgraded electical panel was moved to the top of the starboard shelf just forward of the companionway wall. The VHF radio is next to it with a remote mic installed in the cockpit. The sink has been removed and a chart table made in it's place. It's a 42" long table that slides all the way in and does not intrude into the cabin space when closed.
   I've toyed with moving the portapotti to the area forward of the bulkhead, starboard side. I think there's plenty of headroom and currently it's a deep storage area that's a bit hard to get to. I'd put one in that has the pump out option so it doesn't have to be removed. Sort of a comprimise between a porta and a real head.
   Thanks for your investigations into improving the interior of the 23. Although I can't seem to post photos here (problem with me and photobucket) I could email you some of what I've done.
Btw, I'm a building contractor in Southern NJ concentrating mostly on Long Beach Island. I've worked on some great homes and work closely with architects all the time. A builder who can understand and interpret a good architects vision, well they make an unbeatable combination.
Bob23

[brackish]

Hey Zig,

Those are some very nice 3D Cad images. , that's the way to "try out" your ideas. 

I struggled with moving the galley, in fact I was the one that posted that original pic of the CD22 that you referenced.  What I concluded is that leaving it as two slide outs allowed me to stand in an open companionway and allowed steam and heat to vent from the boat when using the stove, so I left it as is.

I agree with Shawn on the table, just recently made one that is the same concept as the factory but smaller, lighter and stored in a different place.  I got rid of the box that the table was the top for.  It was too hard to get in there and access anything in the box, or the table when needed.  My table stores in a place that can be used for nothing else and can be accessed in a second.  It was also set up to be either/or, cabin or cockpit.  Link.

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6356.0

On some versions of the 23, moving the electrical might not be that big of a project, however, on the IV version it is a major issue. Finding another, better place for all this and the wire bundles behind it would be a challenge:


I like the setup, the only downside is the height under the companionway step was reduced and finding a decent cooler to fit there has been difficult.  My plan is to build a drawer/cooler for that purpose.  In the picture above, the process for accessing the cooler is to lift the hinged step, pull up and remove the drop board that is not structural to support the step, just closes the area, then pull out the cooler to get in it.  The plan is to have the drop board become the drawer front for the cooler/drawer with overextend slides Now that CAD system would be great for planning that.

As far as head privacy, the curtain that rolls up with Velcro straps works fine and it is very light.  I'm always concerned about adding permanent weight to the boat, both for sailing performance but also for tow capacity.

Keep at it, great to see ideas visualized.

[Shawn]

" I found this image online of a stripped Compac 23 - it looks like there is quite a bit of room down there. Admittedly though, I'm a little fuzzy on how the manual bilge pump fits in. Not sure if that's a deal breaker or not."

That must be a very early model and even then I think they tended to have more around the cockpit steps. The bilge pump mounts to the face of the fiberglass tub that you can see in your picture. One other thing to consider is most 23s have little bulkheads at aft end of the quarterberths to separate the cockpit from the seat lockers. On some there is also a thru-hull on the starboard side for the sink drain back near that missing bulkhead. That picture is also missing the side cabinets which makes the width feel much larger.

Original 23s had the best sleeping (wider quarterberths), longer V berth (didn't have the bulkhead that limited leg room) but less storage compared to the later models.

"As for the table, it sounds like you've made the table work more effectively than some other people on this forum. It could be that your way is the simplest and most elegant solution"

I haven't changed mine from factory yet actually. Someone else shortened it which improved the usability and I may go with that. As far as storage I think the setup in my boat is factory and it works very well. That is a 23-3, the 23-4 setup is likely different due to differences in step area.

"Your idea about modifying the storage area is very compelling"

There was a boat on ebay (I think) that had this change done to it, it looks like it would give plenty of leg room for the V berth. Doing this would leave the water tank fill pipe exposed but that isn't much of an issue. I may do the same with mine but it introduces a number of aesthetic changes that would need to be addressed.

Shawn

[Shawn]

"The slide out stove does not interfere with sleeping in the side berth."

I think that may depend a little on the person, in my case it did due to the limited height from the cushion to the stove casing, my feet would hit it. That was another benefit of ditching the double burner stove and putting in a single next to the sink.

"was the galley forward but that might be a personal thing for me. I'd rather have it near the companionway for safety although it is under the forward hatch for ventilation.  "

I would agree with that. It is nice to be able to heat up some water (coffee,tea, hot chocolate) while sailing with the pot right inside the companionway. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that up in the V berth area. There is also more of a direct exit for exhaust fumes with it in the back. Less motion in the middle of the boat verses being up front when anchored in swells too.

In the 3D drawings it looks like it has enough space but I think that model is off somewhat or the perspective is giving the illusion of more room than there really is. The hatch begins much closer to the bulkhead (maybe 6-8inches?) and as such the lower deck area intrudes on the headroom sooner. I don't have a good picture of this relationship but you can see close the hatch is to the bulkhead here:


Shawn

[brackish]

Also, if I were starting with an open boat as in your picture, I would not build cabinets all the way to the berth surface as the current models have.  I would build them down from the top (that area is a shelf on current models) and leave enough open area below the cabinets to widen the berths significantly.  If they were wider, I would sleep there, but as it is, they are too narrow, so I sleep in the V berth.  At 5' 10" I find it quite comfortable.

[NateD]

First, very cool drawings. I like the way you dream.

I agree with everyone about the width of the quarter berths (at least on models that have the cabinets). If you plan to sleep there you either need to widen them or plan for a filler cushion.

I don't think the sliding doors are going to work real well for head privacy, the area is just too cramped. And more often than not you want the cross ventilation from the forward hatch through the cabin.

Last fall I took a bunch of pictures of my 1991 CP23 so that I could think through some modifications, some of the pictures might help you: https://picasaweb.google.com/105772036807205996083/ComPac23Oct12?authuser=0&feat=directlink

You can see the bilge pump hoses and the pump in some of the pictures. My vote would also be to leave the current companionway step structure in place. My storage box that goes in that space is full of spare parts and miscellaneous gear that would have to find a home. If you did go with the swing out tables you will want some way to easily pop the tables off their brackets so that you can get access to the bilge. I also keep my small trash can underneath the companionway step, you'll want to design a place for a trash can. I was just thinking last weekend that the presents of a trash can might be the demarcation line between a "camp cruiser" and a "cruising" sailboat.

I'm only 6', but the slide out sink and stove don't bother me when sleeping on the quarter berths (just the width). However, the hose that hangs off the bottom of the sink is kind of annoying. I've toyed with the idea of permanently mounting the sink (along with a nice cabinet with storage) just aft of the v-berth bulkhead. Then you would have the sink and stove on the same side and with some swing up counter extensions you might be able to get a full length temporary counter on that side. The berth would still be long enough for a kid to sleep on.

On my 23 (with the factory head), that vented loop for the head and the Y-valve are in the first "storage" area of the chain locker at the foot of the v-berth. So if you're going to knock that out for foot room and you plan to have a marine head, then you'll have to figure out a different way to run the plumbing.

I moved up from a CP16 to a 23, and compared to the 16, the 23 is a palace. But after a long winter of thinking about modifications, I am surprised every spring when I get back on the boat and remember how small the interior really is.

[zigguratzero]

Bob,
Interesting that the slide out stove doesn't bother you when sleeping. Sounds like this depends on the individual. (And maybe the sink is more of a problem than the stove.) I'm still not sure where I fall on this issue, but my intuition tells me that it might be better to either leave it completely open for sleeping or utilize it fully for galley/storage. You might loose a sleeping berth, but you'd have a nicer galley. I'm still undecided on this, and once again, it probably depends on the quality of the existing setup on whichever boat I end up with. (Either way I like your idea of the lengthened slide out table.)

About the sliding doors at the bulkhead, my thought was that they could just be applied on top of the existing bulkhead, modifying only the trim, if even that. Depending on the thickness of material used, this could be done somewhere in the range of 2 inches thick, I think. Seems like that wouldn't push too far into the area after of the V-berth.

I guess the more relevant question is, are privacy doors even necessary? What do you guys think? Seems like it could be a nice feature, especially when there are a lot of people on the boat.

About your comment regarding access to shelves and bilge being difficult - I suspect you are right about this. Maybe a solution for this could be something similar to this Flicka? (removable stair with access door behind)

Flicka 20


Although I think that that particular door is probably for engine access, and therefore maybe not intended to be used frequently. Maybe this is a stupid question, but do you guys use this area to store things that you access frequently? I could see some combination of removable stair and a set of minimal looking drawers working quite nicely. You could even move the stair off center to give more room to the drawers. Very interesting...

About you and some others comments on galley ventilation - noted. I'm thinking about doing another scheme to address this and some other issues brought up here…

Also I'd love to see what you've done - if you email me your pictures, I'd be happy to post them for you (or not, if you prefer.)

I couldn't agree more with you thoughts on architects collaborating with contractors. We just need an engineer for this sailboat redesign and our team would be complete!







Brackish,
The ventilation issue is a good point, I think I'll address that soon. Also, I like what you did with the table - flexibility for use in the cockpit or berths. I wonder what happens to the cockpit bracket when the table is not in use?

Your electrical/cooler area looks quite sophisticated and the woodwork is quite nice as well. I don't think I would rip that out being as nice as it is. Also your idea for the slide out cooler sounds pretty sweet. You mentioned using a CAD system for your cooler modification. I would be happy to offer my model if you wanted to try your hand at mocking it up. I could only be so accurate with the model since it was based on photographs and tiny drawings. There is a big learning curve with the software, but depending on how much you want it, you might be able to work something out. The software is called Rhino 5 and the trail version is fully featured, but only allows 25 saves (full version is quite pricey at $1000). After that it will only let you view models.

http://www.rhino3d.com/download

Also, there is a mobile version called iRhino that only costs $3.99. It only lets you view models, but if anyone is curious I would be happy to post the model.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/irhino-3d/id373666504?mt=8

Also, your idea about leaving space below the cabinets to widen the berths is really great. I could imagine a system similar to the Dana 24's where a back cushion hides the extended space until needed for sleeping (see image). I suppose for me it depends on the quality of the existing interior of my future boat. If it's super nice, I'd have a hard time tearing it out. But if it's shoddy, then this could be a great alternative! Thanks for the idea.

Dana 24









Shawn,
Thanks for the info on the bilge pump, V-berth, and other details. You've given me a lot to think about!
And another vote for galley up front for ventilation and less motion - good point.
Also, you're right. Looks like my hatch is slightly off!







Nate,
Thanks for your thoughts and for the images - really a great source for people like me who like to plan from a distance! And now I see what others have been saying about the bilge pump. Seems like some careful woodwork might be able negotiate around the hoses. But my table idea might be a no go. I'll have to think about that to see if the idea is salvageable.

"I moved up from a CP16 to a 23, and compared to the 16, the 23 is a palace. But after a long winter of thinking about modifications, I am surprised every spring when I get back on the boat and remember how small the interior really is."

Funny how this works! I always tried to work with scale figures in the model (you can see a few of them very faintly in my original screenshots).







Lets face it, the designers of the compac 23 interior thought long and hard about all of these issues and their configuration reflects that. It's actually quite good. If the boat I end up with has a flawless interior, I would be very hesitant to modify it in a significant way. But if I end up with an older boat with an interior that is spent anyway, well then why not get fancy?

I'm hoping to have Compac 23 interior renovation, part 2 ready soon...

[NateD]

I was trying to find this link earlier as an example for you. No Mas (http://www.frontier.net/~chappell/)is one of the most modified CP23's that I know about. I believe a member here bought it last year. I like where they placed their sink (but I would have used a square one), and I probably would have left the stove as a slide out.

[Bob23]

Zig:
  I think Shawns idea (I'm right about it being Shawn, I hope) of eliminating the double stove and combining the Origo single with a sink to the port side is a great idea. You could still have a chart table on the starboard side and it would not interfere with sleeping. btw, I'm a little guy- only 5'7" so maybe that's why I fit nicely into the quarter berth.
  My sliding door frames are 3/4" think Cumaru. I cut 2 grooves in the boards to hold the 2 sliding panels which are only a scant 1/8" thick. I cut and mitred the wood and bolted with small ss screws. The panels work great and the whole thing can be removed and the original lift off panels reused, if desired. Because they are opaque, you can sort of see into the shelf area and it adds a more spacious feel. Because, Zig you and I both know- it's all about the feel of the area, right?
  My 1985 has a roll down privacy curtain. Because I usually sail alone, it's not neccesary. It really affords minimal privacy anyway. I never even unroll mine.
  I store the portapotti in back of the companionway step. It's on hinges so it's easy to get to. I also built removable panels to cover the bilge so stuff can be stored in back of the PP. Stuff that doesn't get used all that often goes back there. The panels are removable without tools. I did the same kinda thing up front where the anchor rode is stored. I built removable panels (again, no tools needed) to divide the area. I store 100' of 1/2 line for my primary anchor and 200' of 5/8" line for a larger anchor which I've yet to use. In any event, it's nice to have and additional rode ready to go...just in case.
   You've named one of my favorite boats, the Flicka. For a little 20 footer, there is enormous room down there. Having standing headroom and no bulkhead doesn't hurt either. Somewhere on this site, probably here in the 23 section is some coverage of a couple who did some long range cruising in thier 23D. They completely redid the interior with propane stove. Really nice. If I find it, I'll direct you to it.
Bob23

[Shawn]

Bob,

Can't take credit for the stove/sink combo, another member here did it first. It is a fantastic idea though.

" You could still have a chart table on the starboard side and it would not interfere with sleeping."

I may do this, if I do I'll take it one step further and have the chart table also have a fold out section (amidships) to act as a table to eat on.

Flickas are very nice boats. All that room down below comes at the expense of a tiny cockpit though. The 23 has a nice balance between cockpit and cabin size IMO. I wish one or the other was bigger about the same amount of the time.

Shawn

[brackish]

 Also, I like what you did with the table - flexibility for use in the cockpit or berths. I wonder what happens to the cockpit bracket when the table is not in use?

It stays in the port cockpit locker close to the point of use, plenty of room in there.

I would be happy to offer my model if you wanted to try your hand at mocking it up.

Hey, thanks for the offer, but not sure that project warrants the learning curve time.  I've dabbled in AutoCAD, the full version, and I've also designed a couple of homes with Chief Architect, the version just before the full blown pro. One of the homes is intended to be the one we build when we finally move south.  What is true for me is that if I'm working with Cad software every day I can get proficient with it, if it is just an occasional use, the time it takes to get from here to there is not worth it, particularly for a small project.