clam or cam cleats for jib sheets?

[rip]

My Admiral has a tough time with the jib sheets on the regular cleats. Tying and untying take forever and so far are never clean hitches when she is done. In a gust the other day during a jibe she lost control of the sheet...and let out a yelp that scared the captain as he was busy getting the main across, and managing the tiller. I have asked her to practice this maneuver at home, but it doesn't seem to be getting any smoother. If she moved faster and didn't have to think about it I think she would be fine, but as I reflected the other day, perhaps I could simplify the task by adding open top cam or clam cleats to the boat. That's what I have on the Hobie16 and she handles them fine. But maybe the size of the 23 makes that a bad idea? I welcome suggestions... except those aimed at my sailing techniques . rip

[skip1930]

I added the Harken cam lock cleats. Didn't work. Don't bother. The only reason they are still on the cockpit combing is I don't want to deal with the screw holes.

skip. A properly formed knot will always be a snap to untie. Under both horns. Up, over, under, your done. And remember the line coming off the block that travels is pointing toward the center of the head sail. Nice and smooth. And use a big figure eight stopper knot to keep that line that got-a-way in the block, and not out flaying around in front of the bow with a snappy sail too boot.

Hey, were back in business. Color and spell check wise. Don't know what I did.

[rip]

Thanks Skip1930, But do you have an Admiral on your sheets? Perhaps yours is much more mechanical, and quicker moving than mine. She is training but I am not sure... What was wrong with the operation of those Harkens? rip

[Shawn]

Put Winchers on your 23s winches.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|3071|899943&id=899493

I also hated the cleats, the Winchers are great. I added them last year. Putting the jib sheet in the track at the top locks it fine and is really easy to release.

Shawn

[Billy]

I have them (about 8" aft of the cleats). And I love them. sometimes I use the cleats, sometimes I use the cams. And when I use the cleats i very seldom use a cleat hitch. I know how to tie one but I just do a couple figure eights, quicker and easier. And if the wind is too stong then I use the cam cleats.

[Bob23]

Uh, someone in Koinonia's past added Andersen 12ST self tailing winches to the boat. Obviously I use these but still tie the sheets off to the cleats. I seem to have no problems with this arragement.

Bob23

[Allure2sail]

Hi:
I had that same setup on my 25' Catalina and for the most part it worked fine. Where it did became marginal to use was when the wind was in the upper teens or lower termties and the head sail was pulling pretty hard. I had a 135 head sail on a 25 foot, 4,000 lb boat. I think a bigger head sail or a larger boat and you may not be able pull the sheet line back enough to release the cam action. The cam cleats had what I think is called a fairlead to keep the line captured once you uncleated from the cams. It did work for I'd say 95% of the time. It sure beat buying new self tailing winches and made single handed sailing easier for me. When the wind kicked up and things got dicey I would cleat off the sheet lines instead of using the cam cleat setup. Either way that you choose to secure the sheet line after a tack you should always have a minimum of two preferably three wraps on the winch, that is what really takes the load from the line.
Good luck.....I'd say go for it.
Bruce
Make sure you have a good alignment on them to where the line comes off the winch, and space them up height wise so that they are at least as high as the lowest wrap you could put on the winch. THIS IS ALL MY JUST MY OPINION BASED ON MY LAST BOAT AND WHAT WORKED FOR ME !!!!!

[skip1930]

Slipping, sliding, not holding, a pain to adjust...as these cam cleats are either on or off...popping the line loose and playing out just a tad or pulling them in a tad is just taking too long.  And you do realize that the cam has to be mounted 'back wards' and mounted on a tilted base.

No I have no Admiral to take care of the fwd lines for me. I usually let the boom go and I do the fwd sheeting first. Then the boom. Don't forget to duck.

skip. At times I swing a leg over the tiller to free up the hands.

[rip]

Hot Dang! You guys are all amazing. Shawn gets first prize today. A $50 solution works for me. Bob23 is such a show off - the least expensive of those self tailers costs 1/4 of what we paid for our abandoned 23. I would have to go back to work - yuk! I think cam and clam cleats are sometimes confused in our discussion. Based on my limited deciphering ability I think that clam would serve better here than cam as a quick yank upward would probably release the sheet. I am guessing that the Watski Winchers might serve the Admiral better than the clams though.
Hey Skip1930, I too like the leg over the tiller approach, but for me it's an ankle(I'm short), and performing that operation of tending the fore sails prior to getting the main over during a jibe is beyond my capabilities.
Thanks everyone! And what a great convenient forum this is. Not just for the great interchange, but for the technology of this site which is miles above any other I use. Hats off to Bob23 and CaptK. rip 

[Billy]

Lots of times we run the jib sheet around the winch and over to the high side, around the winch to the cleat (or cam cleat). But in this photo you can see the cams just mounted right onto the combing, flush. Could not be easier to release! Sometimes, the Admiral has a tough time setting it, but she will tell you (always take a womans advice as happy wives make happy lives) it is infinitely easier than tying a cleat hitch (and she knows how to tie a cleat hitch). But in light wind it just doesn't seem necessary.



but like I said before, in light winds, we just give it a couple wraps around the cleat w/ no hitch.

Skip, not sure what you mean backwards, are mine backwards? I do think Salty installed some cams and raised them w/ some starboard shims, I think.

[Salty19]

Yep, I'm using the Ronstan Extreme angle cam cleats bolted to the coaming top.  They are located between the winches and cleats (CP19).  As Billy mentioned, they are raised up using starboard spacers (1/2").  Could use another 1/2" to make cleating off easier, just have not got around to doing it yet. 

Overall with the jibsheet led through the standard lead and around the winch they work really well.  With the genoa sheet running through the blocks on the track, up and around the winch and to the cleat there is a bit more friction than is ideal but so far hasn't been a problem.  Part of the problem is the track blocks are not stand-up types, instead they tend to fall over to one side and the sheet gets jammed.  The other part of the problem is the angle of the sheets as they lead into the cam cleat.  With the lower loads of a jib, the rubbing of the sheet on the cam cleat lead is not bad but with larger loads it's a drag point.

Billy, I imagine your cam cleats are a little more efficient in terms of not causing friction on the fairlead, because it's a straight shot and there is no fairlead to begin with.

[Shawn]

Bruce,

"I think a bigger head sail or a larger boat and you may not be able pull the sheet line back enough to release the cam action."

That is where Spinlock cleats are so nice. You don't have to pull through to get them to release, just pull up and they release. Likewise to lock them just pull down. I used them on my Flying Scot when I re-rigged it. Jib cleats were on the forward coaming and I could sit at the back of the cockpit and still lock/unlock the cleats when single handing.



Shawn

[Bob23]

Rip:
  Those Andersen winches are expensive...I'm glad a previous owner had deeper pockets than I do. I usually take a few turns around the winch and tie of the sheet to the high side of the boat- Billy style. For fine adjustments, after loosening the sheet on the cleat, I'll yank on the sheet belaying-pin style and cleat it off. Easy and fun.
   Am I really a show-off?

Bob23

[Billy]

"Billy Style" I like that! Bob you may have just named my boat!

[Allure2sail]

Hi Shawn:
Those look like they would work better than the cam cleats I had used on my last boat. Good idea !!!
Bruce