Loose Footed Main Rigging

[Tim F]

Hi,

I know there have been a few discussions on how to rig a loose footed main. I didn't see exactly what I was looking for so I'll revisit the topic.

I have a CP16-3 and specific to the 16 I like to know how loose footed main owners feel about:

1) outhaul purchase. 2:1 enough on our little boats or would 3:1 be advised?
2) what methods are working for holding the clew down? A slug in the boom slot? A dedicated track I've seen in pictures in some of the posts? A loose loop of strapping?

I'm thinking hard about ordering a new main and want to have a pretty clear idea about rigging changes before I do so.

Thanks for your advice.

-Tim

[Glenn Basore]

Tim,

I don't have all your answers for you but I can talk a little bit on a loose footed main.

My first boat H-170 (day sailor) was a loose footed main,I really like being able to shape the sail for the condition I was sailing in and in light air it was especially nice.

After reading a few post here I converted my Eclipse to a loose footed main, I haven't sailed it much since Ive done this but it does seem a little better performance in light air

Glenn

[sailen69]

I have not tried sailing loose footed, but I like the idea. 

1)   Outhaul.  I first went with the basic 1:1 out of the book.  I soon changed over to a simple four part purchase.  That was better, but not fast, easy, or easily adjustable.   I just installed this 4:1 outhaul set up over the winter.  It seams to work very well in the house, now I have to try it out on the water.  I was wondering if this would be enough to make adjustments under load while sailing loose footed.  I have set up an internal 8:1 on a bigger boat that works very nice.



2)   I think I would go with a slug in the boom slot, at least for trying this out.

3)   A good, adjustable, easy accessible toping lift and maybe a mainsail with out a bolt rope on the foot would be desirable.

4)   Can any one with experience vote on improved performance in light air, heavy air?

Good luck,
Rich

[skip1930]

I don't see any advantage to being loose footed vs a rope in the slot of the boom.
I don't think the designer did either.
Would there be much difference in the terminal hull speed?
If not I'd just go with the best price.
Does anyone actually play around with the out-haul while sailing?
And don't forget the need for a vertical baton mid-sail at the foot of the loose sail.

skip.

[Glenn Basore]

I like the 4:1 that you are showing, I never have enough strength to pull on the out haul when sailing.

In light air I play with the out haul wanting to get the best shape possible.

Glenn

[Billy]

Skip,
I used to agree, I think Clarke Mills & Bob Johnson have forgotten more about sailing than I will ever know. I even asked Gerry one day about the loose footed main. His response was that he thought it was a scam put out by sailmakers to save money (no bolt rope for the same price).  He saw no point in it.

However, after hearing all the positives on this site, one day out on the lake I decided to give it a whirl. All I did was put the slug in the slot and left the bolt rope out. INSTANTLY I noticed ALOT less weather helm, (I have a CP19-I so no bow sprit). And I could adjust the shape of the sail and could feel the boat accelerate. No vertical battons for me (they're not even full battons). Now my wife will take the helm where as before she wouldn't. And one of the best parts is it is infinitely easier to rig. Trying to take the rope out of the slot was very difficult. Now it couldn't be easier! I trailer it almost everytime I go out. So this was a huge plus.

But sailing loose footed is not all PROs. B/c my sail is not set up to be loose footed, I only do it in light to moderate air. Heavy air I tuck in the rope, even though I could just ease the outhaul and dump the air out of the bottom (can't do this w/ the bolt rope in the boom). Also, when trying to sail into the wind, close hauled, I cannot pull the outhaul in enough (2:1 ratio). So going into the wind I want the rope in and the jib sheets b/w the shrowds. Down wind, loose foot and sheets outside. Be careful, if your sail isn't set up to be loose footed yo could easily tear it up in heavy winds.

Just my 2 cents.
P.S. 2:1 is a bit hard to trim in may want to go to a 3:1, and I would also move the cleat as far forward on the boom as possible. The outhaul is hard to adjust when it is hanging off the side of the boat on a run.

[Tim F]

Thanks for the feedback Billy.

Your comment reinforces my thinking that there is probably no big performance benefit but the extra sail shaping control probably can't hurt either.

Still waiting to here from owners of 16s that are using a main that is designed to be sailed loose footed.

-Tim

[Bob23]

Billy:
   I have a question: If you noticed less weather helm after setting your main loose footed, doesn't that mean it was generating less horsepower? I don't see how the center of effort can move between loose footed and non. I can see, if the main was old and out of shape, that setting it loose footed can help.
   My 23, and all 23's are known for a bit of weather helm. As the center of effort is moved forward, as in rigging the mast with a 2-3 degree forward tilt, the weather helm is reduced because the total center of effort is moved forward. That's why adding a bowsprit to these boats helps.
   But I can't disagree that some guys here have gone loose footed and noticed increased performance although possibley they had one too many Margaritas!
   I'm in the process of having a new suit of sails made for my 1985 23/2 and the sailmaker advised against loose footed. He stated the increase in performance would be negligable although I think it might help in light air. He didn't think the extra string to pull would be worth it in a non-racing boat such as my 23. But the big thing is that the 2 sails are not the same. A loosefooted main is built slightly different than non-loose. Each one should be built for the specific way it is to be rigged.
   Have fun! Bob23...btw, I dance loose -footed!

[Shawn]

"I don't see how the center of effort can move between loose footed and non."

The sail shape is different between the two. With a bolt rope the sail is always going to flatten out at the boom. Loose footed allows you to keep the draft through the entire sail including where you have the longest section of sail... at the boom. I think this gives a nice benefit on lighter air days.

Loose footed on my 23 and the sail shape looked better then when I had the bolt rope in the boom. I do have a slug on the clew so that the outhaul is only controlling in/out and not also trying to hold the clew down. Last season I had a 2:1 on the outhaul and that was not all that easy to adjust. This year it will be a 6:1 and the cleat was moved much further forward on the boom to allow for easier adjustments on different points of sail.

Shawn

[Billy]

Bob,
I'm no expert and you may be right. I very well could have been a user error. Here is how I figure, the center of effort is prety far back on my boat (thats why they added the bw sprit on the newer models. By allowing air to "dump" out of the foot of the sail (similar to using a mid boom traveler) I decrease the force on the main sailwhile the force on the jb remains, which would inturn move the ceter of effort forward.

Also, may need a wind tunnel to prove this point (or give you a few of those margaritias!) but by allowing the wind to dump out at the foot of the mainsail the wind cano move faser across the sail. when the bolt rope is in place, the wind seems to get backed up at the foot of the sail. there is a "pocket" at the base, similar to the tack.  Am I making sense? As far as less horse power goes, I'm sure you are right but reefing in 30+ knots will make  boat sail fster too. and I'm sure my neighbors diesel has more horspower than my toyota but I know my truck is faster! HP doesn't always mean more speed.

Shawn, my bolt rope is pretty thin and very flexable. I'm sure not having it would make a better shape but I like to switch it up and see what works best.

[Bob23]

Shawn and Billy:
   Good points all. And it does make sense that by eliminating the air dam at the rear of the sail, indeed the center of effort could move forward in the sense that the air can move through the sail faster.
   This is just the kind of stuff I love about this forum...I've learned so much. And to think that back in 1975 when I inadvertantly invented the windsurfer by fabricating a mast and boom onto and old 11 foot surfboard, I used a bed sheet for a sail. It never did work right.
   Gee, I wonder if I should rethink my mainsail? Nah...we really don't get too much light air days around here. I regularly sail with the first reef in.
Bob23

[Shawn]

Billy,

"my bolt rope is pretty thin and very flexable. I'm sure not having it would make a better shape but I like to switch it up and see what works best. "

Sorry, I worried that poorly. I meant if you have the bolt rope in the boom the sail is always going to flatten out at the boom. Running the same sail loose footed that doesn't occur as much, you can keep the draft in even with the bolt rope on the sail but it flying free.

My understanding is if the sail is designed to be loose footed the sail shape is a little different along the foot to really take advantage of this.

Shawn

[KPL]

Tim -
I'm about to start the second full season with the loose-footed main for my cp16.   I needed new sails (my 1982 had original sails), so I went with a loose footed main, and went with slugs instead of a bolt rope on the luff (Much cleaner to stow, furl and raise.  I keep the boat on a slip in my back yard).  I think the loose footed gets better shape - fuller in light airs and flatter in heavier, allowing me to wait longer to reef.  My outhaul is a simple one-to-one with a cleat.  There is a long slug at the leech that rides in the boom slot.  This keeps the necessary downward position of the sail on the boom.I dont' adjust on the run, I just head up, the boom comes over the cockpit, I adjust tension, and then head off. Reefing is easy, i have a hook on the luff attachment point, and on the leach I use an eye on one side with a piece of rope that goes through the grommet and then secures to a cleat on the opposite side.  The cleat and eye are about 6 inches astern of the grommet so I get good tension on the foot (ie, flat sail) when reefing.  With a loose footed main, be sure to tie your reef lines above the boom; if they go below the boom they will put stress on the reef points, which aren't designed to take any load and could rip out.

I love the loose foot.  My Holder 14 also had loose foot, and it was nice to be able to adjust the shape.

I'll see if I can locate some photos .

Kevin

[capt_nemo]

I do not have a C16 but have sailed boats with and without loose footed mainsails. I've also made loose footed mains for small daysailers, and am about half way through making a loose footed nylon light air mainsail for my gaff rigged Com-Pac Sun Cat. I'm the guy who quickly added a homemade jib (nylon Drifter) to a Catboat to improve light air performance - and it really makes a difference!

It is generally accepted that a mainsail's shape can be controlled better if it is loose footed. And, some folks believe, as do I, that a better, more efficient sail shape can be achieved with a loose footed main.

Also, KPL's clew adjusting technique (above) of head-up, adjust tension, head-off,  is the least complicated and most effective (and safest) way to accomplish this task. Unless of course you are dead set on adding several blocks and yards of line at the end of the boom and love to hang out over the side of the boat to reach the boom and perform the adjustment. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Billy]

my old 16 had a loose footed main. it had a curve to it that went below the boom. Kind of like the roach on the leach of the main sail.