Home Made Foil vs Ida blade vs Ida system

[brianh]

I need to replace/repair the stock rudder blade on my recently acquired 16 and was wonder which route to take on the rudder.  Would it be better to do my own foil or purchase a new blade from Ida or for a little bit more get their complete kick up rudder assembly?  What are the pros and cons of each?

[kickingbug1]

     i have an ida blade on my 81 cp16 and have sailed an 82 with a homemade blade (john js boat). they sail the same. even though i got my ida blade when they were "cheap", knowing what i know now i would have made my own. either way the difference over the stock blade cannot be understated

[Greene]

The homemade version is a simple project that will save you a bundle of money.  I believe my first one cost around $60 (CP16) and the second one $45 (CP19).   I haven't used an IDA, but I can't imagine that there is any significant performance difference.  No matter which way you go, you'll be thrilled with the change in your boat's handling.  Brenda and I used to switch off on the tiller every hour or so, just because the weather helm was so tiring.  After switching to the foils I can't get the tiller away from the Admiral.  Two fingers can control the tiller even with strong beam winds.  It feels like power steering.

Mike

[kickingbug1]

   mike i vote for miss b haven (gotta name a boat after a woman)

[brianh]

The other dilemma I face is the current condition of the old rudder.  It appears the boat did some time in salt water and either the fouling paint had exceeded it's life expediency or there was no paint on it at all.  Either way, the current rudder has severe pits and the pivot point is worn out as well. 

[Salty19]

<THIS IS THE POST I MEANT TO PUT HERE>

The full IDA rudder assembly (with support frame, kick up rudder, tiller) is kind of expensive but they are very high quality and provide some nice features.

I had it on my 16, and now have one on the 19.  The kickup feature is king....there is no rudder bolt to tighten.  When/if the rudder touches ground, it kicks up then the air assisted shock forces it back down.  Thus no loss of steerage or leaning over the transom to retighten the nut.  It's all stainless except the rudder which is HDPE, so there are no corrosion concerns.

The rudder can also be raised to vertical completely out of the water which reduces fouling and makes trailering less of a concern (I tie off the rudder too). You just yank on a cord to raise or lower it, so no bending over the transom.   I raise it up while docked to keep it clear of gunk.

You can see it pics in the Island time link below.  There are some pics of my 16's assembly on this forum too, do a search on kick-up rudder and kickup dder to find them.  If you can't find them, let me know and I'll put 'em here.

I would do it all over again but I tend to lean towards good quality, function and long-term utility.  Afterall, the rudder will last a lifetime so you can amortize the costs over a long period.   Also, while I'm talented in some areas of craftsmanship, forming and sanding wood/plastic/glass/foam to an exact profile is not one of them.  I think they are about $400 for a 16 version, so not cheap.

With that said, the rudder only from IDA or a homemade one will perform the same, so it's really a matter of what new hardware (to replace corroded stuff) costs, if you want the auto-kickup/down function, if you need a new tiller anyway, and if you want something ready to install with CNC cut profile rather than forming it yourself.

Found a picture of the one for a 19:

[Billy]

is it possible to get the kickup assembly without the tiller? I have a new tiller and the original isn't in too bad of shape? If you have to get a tiller can you pick a size? Like the shortest one they have?

[Salty19]

Billy,

Yes, I believe you can order w/o a tiller but then you would have to match their bracket.  And yes you can order shorter sizes of tillers, different drafts of the rudder, rudder height and bend. Check out their custom order form online. At least this was true last year..you can always call Joel at IDA and talk over what you're looking for.  I ordered a 42", 2" shorter than standard or thereabouts, but found that a shorter yet tiller works well when many crew are aboard, so it's become the "main" tiller.

A telescoping tiller would be cool me thinks...but then you wouldn't have that beautiful piece of wood.

[Bob23]

Brian:
   The pivot hole in my 23's blade was worn so I over drilled it. It was pretty bad so the overdrill was a temporary fix. I'll have to install a bronze bushing in it this year.
   Last winter my project was to turn the flat blade into a wood foiled blade. It came out great, took a few eternities, costs more than the defense budget  and works great. Some here have chosen to fashion thier old blade into a new foil using foam, fiberglass and sweat. There are pictures of them around here somewhere and they look and work great. My next one will be a hybrid if foam, fiberglass and yes, sheathed in 3mm okoume plywood. Cheaper, faster and still a foiled wood blade.
   I like the Idarudder system and the air assisted up haul/ down haul system. I use rope. But I'm a hopeless wood freak to I had to make mine out of wood.
  Either way, dollar for dollar, a foiled rudder is the simplist way to improve your boats performance. You will be amazed!
Bob23

[Vic S.]

On the subject of Ida blades: does anyone know if bottom paint will stick to the rudder. I have a standard replacement Ida blade and even lifted up about half of it stays in the water. We keep ours moored here in Gloucester and the build up of gunk in just a week or 2 is amazing.

[whitecap]

I did the full IDA kick-up conversion on my 16 last Summer (including a mast yoke for trailering that attaches to their rudder assembly).  i filled the original rudder mounting holes on the stern & added Ida's ruder mounts.  the performance difference is amazing & i have original sails.  The boat now points upwind amazingly, like a whole different boat.  coming from windsurfing i'll make the following analogy: before, the boat felt like sailing a shortboard with no centerboard, now it feels like a longboard with a centerboard-i can go so far upwind so quickly & easily I find myself sailing dead downwind at times after i run out of room on an inland lake & before i was scared to give up any real estate (go downwind), I'd just sail back & forth.-I no longer yearn for a centerboard!  In a long, narrow lake in the past i've had to kick on the outboard to get back in a strong headwind-not any longer. my concerns with the Ida system are: 1) there is much slop between the rudder head (what the tiller bolts to) & the rudder asm, so i can move the tiller alot either way before the rudder moves-that slop is very annoying & shouldn't be present after i payed what was a fortune (at least to me).  i need to contact Ida & see what they can do, as i dont see how i can easily shim it or otherwise jury-rig it to eliminate slop. 2) the rudder's staying down is dependent on a high-pressure gas strut.  if that strut goes on the fritz miles offshore & i can't keep my rudder in the water, that wouldn't be good.  the directions warn you about lowering the rudder out of the water due to the power/force of the strut, so things could get messy should you have the need to compress a spare strut & mount it while bending over the back of your stern (don't drop anything!).  also, there are no holes drilled through the rudder plates/rudder to insert a through bolt should you want to lock the rudder down out of desperation.  i may drill a hole through everything with the rudder in the down position so i could at least put a bolt through it & lock it down in case that strut fails offshore-then i'd have to pray i don't hit bottom & tear the whole kabob off the transom. the rudder assembly & mast yoke cost close to half what my boat's worth but i justified it out of my love for my compac 16 & not wanting to buy a different boat-it made a great boat greater.

[kickingbug1]

 i have to say that after seeing the complete ida rudder system, im glad a just bought the blade (and that wasnt cheap either). i keep the nut pretty tight but i think it will kick up if i hit something. reaching over the stern to push it down is a bit of a pain but doesnt happen often. i think if it had a rod and handle like whats on a suncat it would work much better, (something i might just try to fabricate for mine). as to sailing performance, anyone using the original flat blade cant possibly be happy with their boat. what a difference. i still cant get over it.

[Salty19]

Whitecap,

Yeah, the one for my ole' 16 was sloppy too.  It had pintles (smooth rod) built in that replaced the rudder bolts.  I had to wrap it in a small piece of adhesive backed thin mil vinyl laying around to shim it up a bit.You can ask IDA to make them with bolts like standard, did this on the 19 w/ 5/16" bolts and zero slop now.
That desperation hole and bolt isn't a bad idea should the strut fail.  Supposedly the snowblower sheer bolts, or a plastic bolt would work well for keeping it down yet would break away in case of hard grounding.

[kickingbug1]

 mike, i wonder if in place of a desperation bolt a wood dowl might work. it could be attached with a small wire so you could pull it out and let it hang if you ever wanted to raise the rudder. pieces could be premade and stored aboard.

[Bob23]

Kick:
   I tried a wood dowel on my old Seapearl 21. Make sure the dowel is a loose fit or it will swell and be impossible or nearly so to remove, even after it's sheared off by a grounding.
Bob23