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[Shawn]

I picked up a Coleman BlackCat catalytic propane heater but haven't tried it in the cabin yet. Should be plenty to take the chill out though. It uses the same propane canisters that the Magma kettle grill use. I don't keep the canisters stored in the cabin though but in a propane locker (made from 4" PVC) that is attached to the swim ladder.

Shawn

[NateD]

Rough calculation says your battery would run it for about 4 hours. Reserve Capacity (RC) of 120 minutes @ 25A, that heater pulls 13 amps, so it should last about 240 minutes, I think. I'm no electrical expert.

If you're only on the water for one night and you wake up at 3am freezing cold, running the heater full blast for an hour would likely keep the cabin warm (enough) until morning and leave more than enough battery for the lights and GPS.

Looks like a good heater but it's surely going to drain your sailboats's battery(s).  If there is any way to find out how quick it will drain your sailboat's battery I'd find out?

We have a marine deep cycle battery, i.e. 550CCA RC120 @25A, and I believe that heater would pull the battery down in a matter of hours!  My 2 cents!  Good luck!

David

[Craig Weis]

romei, on anything 'driven' by a battery be mindful that a battery is nothing more then a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel...as the temperature of the battery drops to 32 deg F the chemical reaction decreases to 1/2 the rating of 70 deg F....although the popular belief is that batteries are storage batteries, they do not store anything...the chemical reaction occurs as the circuit is completed.
There is no free lunch when energy is concerned. The opposite of energy is entropy...the nature of molecules to loose all energy. To stop moving if you will. It is not possible in physics to renew this loss. An alternative source is only possible.
skip.

[romei]

romei, on anything 'driven' by a battery be mindful that a battery is nothing more then a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel...as the temperature of the battery drops to 32 deg F the chemical reaction decreases to 1/2 the rating of 70 deg F....although the popular belief is that batteries are storage batteries, they do not store anything...the chemical reaction occurs as the circuit is completed.
There is no free lunch when energy is concerned. The opposite of energy is entropy...the nature of molecules to loose all energy. To stop moving if you will. It is not possible in physics to renew this loss. An alternative source is only possible.
skip.

All good information there Skip, but I'm  not real sure what it means or why it matters.  To me, that's just over complicating information that rattles around my head and leaks out my ear.  

I simply wired up some running lights and installed a power inverter to blend the occasional margarita and charge my GPS/Marine radio.  It charges with a 10W solar panel that I mounted on the lazerette and so far, it works real nice.  My Compac is only a 16 so if I run that heater in that tiny cabin, it'll prolly only be for a few minutes at a time.  I use that boat for day sailing.  I've never overnighted in it yet and prolly never will..  

I am learning quite a bit from this thread though, as I have a 19' Alacrity with a much larger cabin that I will be using for weekend adventures and at some point will prolly want some heat.  I doubt though that I'd put a separate heater on board.  I'd prolly just fire up the galley stove for a few minutes at a time and then at night, sleep in a good quality sleeping bag.  :-D  

[fafnir]

I am learning quite a bit from this thread though, as I have a 19' Alacrity with a much larger cabin that I will be using for weekend adventures and at some point will prolly want some heat.  I doubt though that I'd put a separate heater on board.  I'd prolly just fire up the galley stove for a few minutes at a time and then at night, sleep in a good quality sleeping bag.  :-D  

When you fire up the galley stove for a few minutes place a terra cotta flower pot upside down over your burner (as long as it doesn't heat up your stove fuel !!! if it does, place it right side up)  these are the cheap clay flower pots available for under $10 at most places that sell plants.  The clay pot will heat up from the stove and continue to radiate heat long after you have turned off the stove.

[nies]

SAILING FRIENDS, BEING AN OLDER AND WISER MAN, I HOPE, ANY OF YOU USING A PROPANE  HEATER WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER NOT USING ONE IN ANY SMALL SPACE, SUCH AS A CABIN. THE RISK, UNDER THE BEST OF VENTILATION IS TO GREAT AND HAVING LOST PEOPLE I KNOW FROM FUMES IN ICE SHEDS AND HUNTING CABINS I WOULD HATE SEE ANY OF YOU NOT WAKE .

[nies]

DAVID, REALLY NOT ANY GOOD ANSWERS I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH. OF COURSE AT THE DOCK WITH ACCESS TO POWER , ELECTRIC HEAT, EXPENSIVE BUT RELATIVELY SAFE. WE USED TO USE A SMALL ALCOHOL STOVE TO COOK WITH AND TAKE THE CHILL OFF, BUT ONLY USED WHILE WIDE AWAKE. IT IS SURPRISING HOW LITTLE HEAT IS REQUIRED IF DRESSED PROPERLY TO MAKE IT COMFORTABLE. THEN THERE IS THE OLD BOY SCOUT TRICK OF" CANDLE IN A COFFEE CAN "HEATER...........PHIL

[romei]

THEN THERE IS THE OLD BOY SCOUT TRICK OF" CANDLE IN A COFFEE CAN "HEATER...........PHIL

I was never a boy scout but what a grand idea, and perfect for a boat the size of a CP16.

Thanks Nies!

[brackish]

A little different tack on this subject.  My 23 will not come out of the water this winter and I'll probably do some sailing on the better days.  What I need is freeze and humidity protection while I'm gone.  Our winters are relatively mild, however we will get quite a few nights and a few days with temperatures below freezing.  I have shore power and am wondering what I might leave in the cabin that is safe and effective to prevent any water in the tank from freezing and generally keep the interior dry. 

I've seen these small 115 volt dehumidifiers that I believe just put out a constant heat maybe about 300 watts output.  Wonder if that would be enough.

As for comfort heating, my last boat (Columbia 8.7) had an oil lamp that would take the chill off.  Took a while to warm it up but eventually comfortable enough to be in the cabin with the gloves and coat off.  This was upper Gulf Coast, so not that big a deal.

Frank

[ontarioSuncat]

I heat the suncat with a candle lantern hung from the cabin roof.

[Shawn]

David,

"But your exactly right, propane and it's byproduct carbon monoxide are very dangerous"

In a room with good ventilation the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower. Efficient burning of propane just results in carbon dioxide and water vapor. Carbon Mono-oxide is when you have incomplete combustion.

The catalytic converters are very efficient in normal air that has about 20% O2 levels. When you are in an enclosed area without decent ventilation (to recover the O2 burned in the heater) the O2 level will drop and the efficiency of the catalytic converter drops as well which means the CO output increases.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:mWwJyCGKFTgJ:www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA05/os/CO03.pdf+catalytic+Propane+Heaters&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShxj0Xsc3gh0T7HboHM0tpAlbw7-5C9ltX3mpFrUERwitlDdEcHfizMwI96piaeGkV4dxmpvNLydlgw3Jp9ksdxgj8pfnrqJ37kUtT7OH5M5c3tpzW88Fq07ST2zUa4itPVV0G5&sig=AFQjCNFhyqV58zKX_s5SzXfcO_IMNKrpQg

Shawn

[Bob23]

Interesting idea with the generator, Dave.
There are 12 volt electric heaters available and if a second battery were install and designated only for the heater, that battery could be recharged with one of those cool, small and quiet Honda 1000 or 2000 watt generators. I've been dying to find a reason to buy one...this could be my ticket! Sounds like the safest way to go and storing the gereator and gasoline isn't a big deal.
I don't like the idea of any non-venting combustion heater in a small space. Technically speaking, in a confined space even a candle doesn't burn very clean. Although our boats are not airtight, to say the least.
I wonder how long a small 12 heater would run before running the battery down to the point that it wouldn't power the heater any longer? Deep cycle battery sounds about right or even better, 2 golf cart batteries.
Bob23

[nies]

DAVID I BELIEVE THERE ARE BARBIE DOLL CANDLES AVAILABLE..........PHIL

[nies]

DAVID, YOU ARE RIGHT, I DONT KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING!!!!!!..........PHIL

[Craig Weis]

SHAWN said, "the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower."

I say don't you believe it.

Lets define combustion.
For lack of better terms known to only combustion engineers, I shall be inaccurate in proper jardin.

A fuel contains btu's. Give or take...187,000 btu/gallon gasoline. 260,000 btu/gallon diesel. 2800 btu/cuft propane, 1000 btu/cuft natural gas. 3412 btu/kw for you electric guys, ect. You know why a diesel gets more miles per gallon then gas? More btu's/gallon. Not more efficient...I digress. Sorry.

During combustion where btu's combine with oxygen to make heat we understand co2 and water [and about 300 other biproducts that one can forget about] is given off as a by product of combustion.

That's a good thing. Without these bi products there would be no heat. No chemical reaction.

The formation of aldehyde's [unburned fuel] occurs when there is not quit enough heat to burn the fuel completely and the fuel molecule carries a few extra oxygen molecules with it. The 'mix' has not been chemically cracked yet. If you will.

When a cold burner is first started up or turned on incomplete combustion occurs. Given enough aldehyde's, the eyes will water and burn a bit till things get rolling proper like and complete combustion occurs. You kind of forget that your still making co2. "It don't stink anymore".

Here is where *catalytic* heaters shine...or glows...in the complete burning and therefore destruction of the fuel and the best possible combination of oxygen and fuel to make as much btu's as possible with as little a fuel usage as possible. The combustion can never be 100% in physics and will always make co2, that deadly gas.

This simply takes the partly burned 'mix' and re burns the 'mix' again using fresh 'mix'. Therefore raising the combustion temperature. Or as understood, catalyicizing as much fuel as possible through recirculating. The ceramic stone or glass wool used at the burner's surface never 'sees' flame but creates infrared waves of energy as well as heat. Infrared is interesting. Heat without heat.

Just like on cars and trucks fitted with ,*catalytic* converters or paint bake-off ovens fitted with a direct gas fired afterburner that raises the 750 deg F oven effluents temperature to 1300 deg F for half a second to destroy all the smoke and fumes and VOCs [volatile organic compounds] from the burned off coatings at the very best efficiency.

Large scale *catalytic* 15 ton vessels of ceramic pellets heated to 2500 deg F to destroy the effluents from automotive paint lines using direct gas fired industrial MAXON or ECLIPSE Air Heaters from 500,000 btu's to 25,000,000 btu's are common in the industry.
Btu's are always in hours BTW. The biggest contributor to unburned hydrocarbon emissions world wide are the home furnaces, even now with 80 or so % efficiency. Not industry heat requirements. If industrial burners were 80% efficient, nobody could afford to turn them on. Sorry I digress again. As you can see it takes energy to burn fuel clean.

In the world of industrial paint-powder and liquid curing-bake ovens infrared tends to heat the surface but does nothing to impinge heat into the substrate. Air blown [impinged] onto the work is needed to heat the substrate. Few coatings can cure in and tollorate just infrared, other coatings will never dry or cure with just infrared.

Kind of like going to the beach. It's a cold day. But sunny. You never got warm, only had goosebumps, but went home with a sunburn. That's infrared.

To finish. A combustion situation having just barely enough oxygen to support burning, and nothing more, is called stokeyometric, a very dirty, smoky combustion, full of aldehyde's, and generally a very cold combustion. To combat this burners are designed with a 20% excess of oxygen to assure complete burning. Think of a diesel when it is first started up. The heat of compression barley gets the job done till she's warmed up and quits puffing grey smoke...once she's burning black were OK.

So "the *catalytic* propane heaters actually produce fairly low amounts of CO so the risks of CO buildup are lower."
I don't think so.

I think these catalytic burners burn up as much oxygen as possible, and by doing this they burn hotter and cleaner, and make infrared energy as well as 'heat' and that allows for a smaller fuel consumption, a smaller burner btu and hence a smaller burner size but LESS oxygen for human consumption in the products of combustion. So please crack a hatch and let in some fresh air.

Automotive solvent destruct equipment...one of many different ways. What I used when I engineered the burn-off of body carriers for the Pontiac Fiero paint line. Body carriers become coated with over spray and then fail to go to ground when using electrostatic guns on robots.



A more important question is...WHY DON"T WE SELL AND BUY 'ENERGY' BY THE BTU?   no matter what the form.  
skip.