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[Craig Weis]

Oil burners produce a flame that radiates heat not at the tip of the flame but rather around the circumference of the flame. A 'bushy' fire if you will. Natural gas fires a thin narrow flame where the tip of the flame is the hotest. Gas ribbon air heater burners have a long but short flame and cover many foot in length. The air blower ducts air through the mixing plates heating the air and delivering it to the building or oven.




Pictures of an air heater, a gas fired flame, and an oil fired flame, and another ribbon burner having no air blowen through it.

Any flame can heat direct or indirect. If direct you must have, by law, exhaust equal to the burner scfm output so you don't kill everybody in the plant. Air make-up units I'm talking about.


After Dad retired to Boca Raton, Florida his monthly electric bill was divided up into so many days that electricity was purchased by the electric company in which the juice was made from burning...
1. coal~The cheapest.
2. Natural gas~Second cheapest.
3. Hydro~Third cheapest.
4. Nuclear~The most expensive. [Because of a fund set aside to decommission the generating plant].
5. Wind~Was not available. Not renewable either. Depends on the sun's heat to move air.
6. Bio-Mass~A lot of stinky weeds degassing. Then capture, purify and burn the gas. I don't think so.
7. Solar~More sun power. Not available at the time? Cloudy day, no sun...what then? What about night? Batteries?
Just some thoughts.
skip.

[Shawn]

"I say don't you believe it."

I posted the actual real world data testing of the heater.

"The combustion can never be 100% in physics and will always make co2, that deadly gas."

CO2 is not a deadly gas. That is carbon dioxide... that stuff your exhale all the time. Your body is very good at shedding CO2.

CO is the deadly gas because it binds with your blood, in place of O2, and your body is very bad at getting rid of CO in your blood. That is why over time it builds up in your blood lowering your O2 sats

"A combustion situation having just barely enough oxygen to support burning, and nothing more, is called stokeyometric, a very dirty, smoky combustion, full of aldehyde's, and generally a very cold combustion. "

Do you mean stoichiometric? Stoichiometric mixture is the perfect air:fuel ratio for whatever fuel you are burning that results in the most complete combustion.

"So please crack a hatch and let in some fresh air."

Agreed, that is why I posted that when the O2 level of the air decreases the CO output of the catalytic heater increases because the mixture is thrown off (from stoichiometric) and you get less complete combustion resulting in more CO output.

Shawn

[Craig Weis]

Yea your right. But I don't care too much about the misspeak between co2 and co. Your quote below confusses me.
"CO2 is not a deadly gas. That is carbon dioxide... that stuff your exhale all the time. Your body is very good at shedding CO2."
But if I put a bag over my head, aren't I going to assume room temperature pretty soon? My sister-in-law did when she committed suicide.

However yes I could not figure out how to spell Stoichiometric, but regardless in order to burn clean and hotter a burner is designed to have an excess of approximately 20% excess air and that prevents the formation of aldehyde.
Stoichiometric has just enough 'air' to burn the fuel and no more. In theory it may be perfect in pratice it's dirty.

So speaking of trees, co2 in and oxygen out...so where does the carbon go? It stays in the trees...me thinks.
Build a power plant. Plant a forest anywhere on earth, since the entire atmosphere circulates around the globe.

China has 2800 steel mills running and none have any pollution equipment on the stacks. India has 3 steel mills. India's 3 out produce all of China's combined. America has five to six steel mills limping along at a highly reduced capacity. So much so that our taconite fleet of ten~1000 footers in the Great Lakes stayed in harbor all this last summer. And may not set sail next summer either. But at least our stacks are clean...

Boat on the left is in the dry dock. She is not ballasted down.
thanks. skip.

[Salty19]

Here's some other thoughts entirely.

I an avid camper and motorcycle touring rider.  These two activities often occur in cooler weather.

Here are a few products I've found that take the bite off the cold that are safe and afforable. None actually heat the cabin but they heat your body.

First, Thermocare Back warmers.  They are essentially a thin cloth with chemicals contained that activate upon exposure to air that wrap around your body like a kidney belt.
Two of them are about $7 retail at your local pharmacy in the sports medicine section.  Less on sale. I've tried CVS brand, but they do not work as well and are less comfortable.

Each lasts about 7-8 hours.  They are very effective at warming your blood which of course circulates to keep your entire body warm.
There are no fumes at all and they are comfortable to wear. No cords, no CO, no battery use and no explosive fluids/gasses.  You've probably seen smaller versions that go in your boots, but those are not very effective.

Second, Jon-E hand warmers. They are naptha (zippo fluid) powered heaters designed to hold in your hand. Each charge lasts about 4 hours for the small units.
Each charge is about 2 ounces of fluid which would cost about $.60 per charge.  They do produce some fumes but very small amounts and little CO.  And they do get very very hot. They have small pouch that insulates your hand from the heat.  They work fanastic for things like football game spectators, hunting, camping, etc. 
Again same principle..warms your blood and keeps the chill off.  They do require a little work to get them going (about 3 minutes).  I've found they are very safe.
As you must hold on to them, they may not be thebest choice for piloting a boat. The units are very solid and should last a lifetime.  They have two sizes, the small one is adequte.

They are about $18, a $4.00 can of zippo fluid should give you roughly 6 or 7 uses.



As for propane radiant heaters, I use them to warm my tent and articles in the tent.  I heat up the tent an hour or two before bed time and turn them off prior to turning in for th night.  And vent the tent a little before turning in.  Great for dryng and heating but yes definitely do not use these in confined spaces with you within that space.

I'll be using the jon-e tonight for a community festival in the 55 degree temps today.  It will keep me toasty. 

lastly, i use a heated vest on the motorcycle.  THey ROCK!!!  They use 3-6 amps depending inthe model.  Again, they heat you, not the area.  On the MC I've riden in 45 degree temps all day in comfort. I use a thermostat controller to limit the heat output and in the case of boating to save your battery. If anyone needs recommendations here, let me know (the vests are about $150, the controller about $70)

[nies]

AFTER FOUR PAGES, AS MY MOTHER USE TO SAY "SIMPLE IS BEST, THATS WHY I MARRIED YOUR FATHER", THE CANDEL LANDERN IS THE BEST ANSWER, SIMPLE AND CHEAP, AND IF NOT HAPPY WITH YOUR NOT OUT MUCH........PHIL

[Shawn]

"But if I put a bag over my head, aren't I going to assume room temperature pretty soon? My sister-in-law did when she committed suicide."

Again, your body can get rid of CO2 easily assuming there is oxygen to replace it with. With CO that doesn't happen nearly as easily.

The CO binds to your blood and prevents its from being able to bind with O2 even if O2 is in the air. That is why it is deadly. It takes a long time for your body to shed CO.

As far as the bag over the head that is a different issue. Too much water will kill you, so will too much O2...etc...etc. That doesn't make either of them a poison. Google carbon monoxide poisoning.

"Stoichiometric has just enough 'air' to burn the fuel and no more. In theory it may be perfect in pratice it's dirty."

That is wrong.

Stoichiometric is the perfect/ideal air fuel ratio which burns the fuel as completely as possible with the least amount of emissions. That is the very definition of stoichiometric... check your dictionary. ( pertaining to or involving substances that are in the exact proportions required for a given reaction.)

For example stoichiometric AFR for gasoline is 14.7:1. You car will run at 17:1 AFR (lean) and at 10:1 AFR (rich) but your emissions are higher then at stoichiometric.

I know you will still doubt it so google it.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stoichiometric-combustion-d_399.html
http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/COMBUST.HTM

Shawn

[Salty19]

Shawn, I think what he meant by in theory it' perfect in practice it's dirty is yes ideally the ratio provides as complete combustion as possible with the perfect ratio between oxygen, hydrogen and other elements that provide the air portion of combustion and fuel but it's never achieved.   Or rather is difficult to achieve across the operating range of any given thing that burns fuel.  Even new fuel injected controlled vehicles are not perfect...somewhere along the way from idle to redline some waste is present because the computer's map. In the case of heaters, the fuel is relatively constant yet the air is not due to temp, altitude, humidty, etc. 

Regardless of this debate or the efficiency level of one heater vs another, we do not want to be confined in an area with high amounts of CO or CO2.
Any fuel burning appliance will produce them.

Phil--Is one candle truly enough to warm a cabin of say a CP19? Interesting...I figured it not make a big difference. I can't imagine that would produce enough CO to kill you--assuming a small amount of ventilation which would be present always (hatchboard area as an example).

[nies]

Salty16, ONE CANDLE LANDERN IS ENOUGH TO TAKE THE CHILL OFF A COOL SUMMER EVENING, BUT 72 DEGREES IT IS NOT. A LITTLE PLANNING WITH PROPER CLOTHES AND SLEEPING BAG AND YOU CAN BE COMFORTABLE IN A ICE CAVE. THE CABIN SQUARE FOOTAGE OF A CP16 IS REALLY VERY SMALL AREA TO HEAT. IF YOUR CABIN DOESNT HAVE A HULL LINER YOUR BODY NEEDS TO BE INSULATED FROM THE HULL.EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT IDEA OF PROPER TEMP., MY WIFE WILL SAY ITS HOT IN HERE, ILL SAY IS NOT, SHE WILL SAY IS SO, SO ITS HOT..........PHIL

[Bob23]

Of course, it helps when you don't feel the cold that much like me. I'm still wearing shorts up here in NJ! As they say, no brain, no pain!
Bob23

[nies]

BOB, YOU WOULD FIT RIGHT IN HAYWARD, WI. WENT TO TOWN YESTERDAY , 2 INCHS SNOW AND 32 DEGREES, AND PEOPLE WALKING AROUND MAIN STREET IN SHORTS, OH WELL, MUST HAVE BEEN TOURIST ,LOL.........PHIL

[romei]

Okay, I think I got it.  Let's do a recap....

A clay pot upside down on the stove will radiate heat long after the flame is gone

There are many liquid fuel fed  heater options, all of which will kill you if you don't ventilate properly

Alcohol is anywhere from $4 to $30 a gallon

Never put a bag over your head unless you want your body to reach room temperature

In the atmosphere around the globe is 700 trillion-billion tons of water vapor (clouds)

Electric heaters are good as long as you have a good way to recharge the battery, which is just a vessel to provide a chemical reaction within that vessel.

A really cool way to store propane canisters is to build a locker out of 4" PVC and place it near the swim ladder

You can always take along a warm red-blooded female if you're willing to endure some undesirable side effects.

Boy scouts are smarter than sailors

BTU, CO and CO2 discussions can get angry and confusing

The proper way to spell stokeyometric is stoichiometric

Zippo hand warmers will come in real handy

Dry clothes and a warm sleeping bag are good things to have

Phil's wife is hot


After absorbing all of this I bought (2) 5 1/4 inch candle lanterns off Ebay for $12.  How did I do?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290361589862

[nies]

GREAT RECAP................YOU DID GREAT......PHIL

[Craig Weis]

You guys are correct. I'm wrong. Good summation. When it's cold in the cabin stay home.
skip. Sorry I said anything.

[romei]

My God Skip, there's nothing to be sorry about!  It was a good spirited discussion full of many interesting facts that I think we all enjoyed and learned from.  I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my recap.  I just tried to lighten the mood a little.  But if I did offend anyone, I'm sorry.

In the end for me though, I think a few candle lanterns will do the trick in a cabin the size of a pup tent.

[Bob23]

I just have to add to this discussion:
   A few years back, a friend and fellow cross country skiier and I went on a 3 day XC ski trip to Lake Placid, NY. We were planning on camping in a lean-to, which we did. What I didn't know was that the temperature outside at night would go down to -20 degrees F. Now I like cold weather but that was redefining cold even for me. Here's how we stayed toasty warm at night:
   We had some serious sleeping bags and just before bed, we'd boil lots of water, fill two 1 quart Nalgene bottles each, put 'em in the bags and it's off to sleep. Of course by morning the water was body temperature but we were sure toasty.
   Interesting trip...met some Swedes who were staying in an igloo they had built so we learned about the proper construction of an igloo. One had an inside-outside thermometer with him and reported that, although it dropped to -20 degrees F, inside remained a balmy 30-32 degrees. Snow is a great insulator!
   I suppose this has nothing to do with warming the cabin of our classy yachts but I felt like sharing this adventure with you guys.
  By the way, I'd like to thank anyone reading this. I have learned and continue to learn so much on this site. The exchange of wisdom, information and experiences is wonderful.
I really feel like I know some of you guys...hope we can meet sometime and share a beer...or grog...or cheeseburger...or all of the above!
Bob23