Suncat keel

[Renae]

Question to anyone who has done a deep dive between the cockpit floor and the bottom of the boat.  How far back is the concrete in the keel poured, and if not "all the way", then what structure kept that pour from extending aft?  I suspect a picture would be used a thousand words.

I was somewhat surprised, after my third sail of the season, to find that there was water in the bilge to pump.  I did not find this after the first two sails.  The cockpit floor in my 2004 is windowed to see into the bilge.  When I look in, the poured concrete extends forward roughly from the point of the bulkhead.  Behind this, I am seeing right into the fiberglass base of the keel.  It was in this hollow that I found about five additional gallons of water after the bilge pump stopped pumping.

As for where the water is coming in, obviously that is crucial to determine.  The only clue I have is that on the third sail, I saw water coming up around the centerboard pennant while motoring around.  Other threads on this site suggest that this is normal.  Normal or not, I would expect the cockpit drains to send this out the back of the boat, not into the bilge.

[Renae]

Ok, it seems no one wants to respond to my admittedly disjointed opening post.  I am off to the barn to see what I can see, but please answer me this:

Is the water I saw Wednesday spurting in around my CB pennant sufficient cause, in the absence of other problem, for water in the bilge?

I will be concentrating my efforts today on the cockpit drains, and what happens when I realease a quantity of water onto the cockpit floor.  This may or may not answer the question, but I am interested in your experience and maintenance chops.  Here's how I see it:

Plan A:  Find and mitigate source of water entry.

Plan B:  If not successful with A, install a decent 12V bilge pump so as to, at the very least, stay ahead of the problem.

Thoughts?

[Floridagent]

I've never looked into my Sunday Cat keel!  So, I can't advise on the contents of the keel.  But, there would seem to be a need for a section to act as a bilge to collect water for viable bilge pumping and to avoid short cycling of an electric pump if so provisioned.  Luckily for me, Cay Cat is kept on a boat lift and only goes for relatively short sails on Lake Eustis.

A search of this site will show a fair amount of discussion on leaks caused by eventual failures of the seams between the scupper pipes and the fiberglass hull and/or inner liner - likely caused by movements among the components and/or thermal differences.

Good luck tracing down the source of the water - so much fun! ?

[Bilge Rat]

Yes, any water spurting in from the centerboard pendant into the cockpit floor should drain out to the scuppers on the stern.  You could test this by pouring a bucket of water in your cockpit floor and then opening up a locker seat and looking underneath to see if any water is leaking into the bilge. On my 2009 Sun cat it looks like the concrete is in the forward half or so of the keel. The rear half of the keel is hollow (bare fiberglass) and this is the bilge.  I am guessing they used some type of baffle when the poured the concrete to keep it confidend in the forward part of the keel and then later removed that after it dried.  If you want to see the bottom/inside of your keel without trying to crawl down there and getting stuck, then you can hold your camera (very carefully)with the flash on and aim it down into the bilge towards the forward part and snap some photos that will give you a clear picture of the inside of your keel.

[Zephyros]

Hello Renae,

Here are some photos of my 2007 Suncat Daysailor bilge area, I recently had my son-in-law crawl in and take them. All the Suncats share the same hull so the bilge area would be the same.

Set 1:

[Zephyros]

Set 2:

[Zephyros]

And last, this is a screenshot of a video that shows the Suncat factory production. It appears the concrete has not been poured into the hull yet. You see from this any my photos they have some type of form they would set in place to get the concrete only where they want it.

[Renae]

Yes, any water spurting in from the centerboard pendant into the cockpit floor should drain out to the scuppers on the stern.  You could test this by pouring a bucket of water in your cockpit floor and then opening up a locker seat and looking underneath to see if any water is leaking into the bilge. On my 2009 Sun cat it looks like the concrete is in the forward half or so of the keel. The rear half of the keel is hollow (bare fiberglass) and this is the bilge.  I am guessing they used some type of baffle when the poured the concrete to keep it confidend in the forward part of the keel and then later removed that after it dried.  If you want to see the bottom/inside of your keel without trying to crawl down there and getting stuck, then you can hold your camera (very carefully)with the flash on and aim it down into the bilge towards the forward part and snap some photos that will give you a clear picture of the inside of your keel.

According to Hutchins, they used a plywood dam to define the aft edge of the poured keel.  They removed it on completion, and all that one will find now are the silicone seals that were along its edges.  I found those in mine.  I have tried photos, but I am way too tall and inflexible to get out of the lockers even if I manage to get in.  Suffice it to say that the aft edge of my concrete is substantially more crumbled/decayed than in your photos.  It looks more like a hill than a wall.  I suspect freeze/thaw cycles did this work over time.  Nevertheless, it's just ballast, and if I can keep her dry, I don't see any reason why I can't keep the keel bottom in good shape and the boat afloat. 

Thanks for those photos though.  I see exactly what I'm supposed to be seeing in mine.  It's there, but grimier, and I need to just figure out where water enters.  Suspect #1 at this point is the through hulls since the keel itself doesn't leak when there is water in the sump and the boat's on the trailer.  I have everything I need to replace the scupper valves and repair, if necessary, the seal around the PVC.

Off to the barn!

[Catawampus]

I had water coming in while sailing and talked to Gerry about it. He directed me to the most likely cause. He was right. It was coming in at the stern where the cockpit drain pvc pipes exit. I sealed around the edges with the soft drying caulk. That was in 2012. No leaks since then.

[bruce]

Thanks, Steve. So they know it's a problem. Just curious, what did the seal between the drain pipe and the transom look like before you resealed it? Gaping hole, little crack?

I still don't know why they don't install a proper thru-hull, with a flexible tube running to the cockpit. On the cockpit fitting they can get creative, a perfect seal is not as critical, and there's no plywood core at risk. Providing access for maintenance would help too, of course.

This thru-hull from SeaDog looks like it would fit the bill. $13 at Defender, cheap enough. It looks like the ball scupper could be mounted in lieu of that outer ring capturing the rubber flap, if you wanted a better seal.
http://www.sea-dog.com/groups/2893-thru-hull-with-scupper-valve

[Bub]

Interesting discussion. It's frustrating to have no easy way to inspect the bilge, test the bilge pump, etc. Has anyone considered installation of an inspection port in the floor of the cockpit, or better yet has anyone installed one?

[bruce]

I'd be curious as well. Personally, I'd have a hard time trusting the seal of a port in standing/sloshing water, but Com-Pac puts then in the sole of the wet lockers on the HC Day Cat. There is a drain nearby, and the port is slightly raised due to the flange. Good for leak resistance, not as good under foot.

[Bub]

Thanks for the pix. I have the same anxiety about affecting the strength of the cockpit floor.

And I actually was thinking about something smaller like the 4-8" round ports used on Sunfish and Lasers etc.to sponge out accumulated water and hang a dry bag inside the hull. they screw tight with a gasket, but usually are not on a frequently used load bearing surface..

Then there is the issue of where to cut the hole without knowing where any sort of reinforcing ribs are located, and where in the heck the hole needs to be to access the bilge.

[Roland of Macatawa]

Bub, I have the same concerns. Roland

[bruce]

Com-Pac installed a round 6" Beckson deck plate on the aft bulkhead of our cockpit. Great for inspecting the transom, a torture to work through, unless right at the site to be worked on. On a crowned deck, the seal would probably be OK, but where water could collect, and under constant foot traffic, I'd still have concerns.

Question. I know you have side lockers on the SC, do they have bottoms or do they open to the bilge? I've been able to photograph the bottom of the cockpit, the bilges and the stringer layout on our PC by lowering a camera down there from our side lockers. Again, good for inspection, not access. I agree, I wouldn't cut into the sole without knowing more about the structural layout. If you did decide to install a port, you could reinforce the sole to mitigate any additional flexing.