Questions: Single Line Reefing - Looking for specifics and other questions

[Byron of Bedford]

Having only had my Suncat out twice I am in the steep part of the learning curve. I now understand the need for a single line reefing system sailing with gusts 25-30MPH. Can anyone tell me the specific size Ronstan Cheek Block, the size and length of the the rope used which will tell me the size of the clam cleat. Also size of the self taping screws to mount the hardware...basically the details needed to order that materials listed in the Cat Boat Manual. I assume the Ronstan series 20 is the right block for the job and will mount on boom without any modification. (They sell an adapter for mounting blocks on curved surfaces which I take is not needed.) Just don't want to mess this up...

Another "newbie" question. On the mast there are two pins hanging from small cables. One is obviously the long pin used when raising mast to keep it up while attaching the forestay and for keeping the sail and hardware below the henge when the mast is down. What is the other curly thing-a-ma-jig?

Also, I read in the documentation I got with the boat that you can leave the pin out of the rudder and just use the friction lever to hold the rudder down, the benefit being if you run aground you don't tear up the rudder. Is this the common practice or do you put the pin in? Can the rudder be lowered before launching off the trailer or is this asking for trouble? The small cable that attached the rudder ping came detached and there is just a shallow hole with no threads. Anyone know how this cable is attached?

Ok...THANKS! for putting up with my picayune questions. I am grateful!

[bruce]

I'm sure others will respond, but I'll throw a few ideas out.

I assume you mean the single line reefing system described by Jim B in the Catboat Manual. The line is made up to the boom at the tack, up to the luff cringle, back to a cheek block on the other side of the boom, aft to a second cheek block at the clew, up to the leech cringle back to a third cheek block on the other side of the boom and forward to a cleat.

Regarding blocks, you have one already at the tack for the standard set up. I'd get two more of those, and match the mounting/fasteners. On the PC, they come from Dwyer. If you changed, I wouldn't go lower than 20mm. They'll be lots of friction in this system anyway.

You could match the line Com-Pac used as well. 1/4" would be plenty, 3/16" would probably be enough, smaller gets hard to handle. I use 3/16" FSE Dinghy Control Line, with a Dyneema core, so it's low stretch, but many will do. Easy to measure out the length needed, or temporarily install a length of any line you have on hand to get the actual length.

I'm not a fan of clam cleats, and I find a horn cleat a pain to use if I'm reefing while bouncing around underway. I use lance cleats, RWO R3604 and R3601, on my lazy jacks and reefing line respectively. Harder to source, but I like them. The R3601s are rated for 5-10 mm line, you may be able to use a size smaller, 3-6mm. RWO lists several. For the side of the boom, I decided to have the cam below the roller, so it wouldn't disengage if the line slipped out of the cam accidentally. For the starboard side of the boom, that meant R3601 (port, blue). The same cleat for the port side of the boom would be would be R3604 (starboard, blue). Confusing. I got mine from Biannacle.com. The first photo is my reefing line cleat. The second shows the cleat better, here used on my lazy jacks.
http://www.rwo-marine.com/products/product.php?subprod=RWO+Cleats
https://us.binnacle.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_keywords=1&plural=1&s=1&keywords=lance+cleat

The bent pin is used to hold the mast up while you rig the forestay. The shape makes it hard to fall out. The long pin goes through the holes behind the mast, under the pivot bolt, and doesn't hold the mast up.

Some use a pin that will shear if the rudder hits something. A wooden dowel for example. Hard to calibrate. There are better ways to hold the rudder down. Deploying the rudder before you launch probably varies with the ramp. I think I could get away with it, but I can easily raise, lower, and set the rudder from the cockpit without reaching over the transom.

[Byron of Bedford]

Thanks for your help Bruce! So many questions answered. I actually was thinking of having the luff and clew on separate lines and had overlooked the Jim B system. I am now going with a true one line set up. I have never seen the lance cleats. They look perfect for this. I had decided to go with cam cleats over clam cleats after doing a bit of research. Thanks for confirmation.

The pictures of the pins on the mast answered everything and gave me some new ideas on keeping things where they need to be. Mystery solved.

I agree that the ramp will determine the risks associated with launching with rudder down. You say you don't have to lean over the transom to lower your rudder. Wondering if you could share how you do this. I'm hanging on by my knees with my head almost in the water as I put in the rudder pin and tighten the friction lever. I must be missing something obvious here.

Again, thanks for the response and the pictures. You made my day!

[Zephyros]

Bryon,

For my rudder shear pin I use a 2" 1/4-20 nylon hex bolt and nylon wing nut. I leave the rudder up when launching as I launch at a shallow ramp. Then for the acrobatics leaning over the transom to push the rubber forward and insert the nylon bolt shear pin is a little bit of a pain but I'm getting better with practice, I just leave the friction lever snug as it is not really needed with the shear pin. Here is an interesting idea for a "helper stick"

I have inserted a simple plastic loop (short length of cable tie with the locking teeth -cut to about 2 inch diameter) into the hole in the rudder that the lifting line goes through.  I then take a piece of pvc pipe with a notch in it, insert it into the plastic loop and, leaning over the transom push it forward till it stops.

Bruce has some great insight on rigging setups, he has helped me out a lot, I'm also working out how I want to setup my reefing lines. One idea I like of Bruce's is to use blocks at the cringle, I'll let him explain.

Bruce, why the preference for lance cleats over a clam cleat since the reefing line will not have that great of a load?

Bryon, what was it that tipped you towards cam cleats over clam cleats from your research? (I'm not sure a typical double cam cleat would fit on the boom so that does make the lance cleat interesting.)

I did find the lance cleats $15 cheaper at:
https://westcoastsailing.net/search.php?search_query=%22Lance%20Cleat%22&section=product

[bruce]

My reefing line is just at the clew, I brought it forward on the boom so I can reach it if the boat falls of the wind and the boom is off the side. I use the reefing hook on the gooseneck at the tack. But, we have open cockpit. Not sure what version SC you have, but if you have a cabin I would imagine that having the tack on a reefing line as well would be advantageous. I've heard of single line reefing systems, handling the tack and clew, but haven't ever tried one. I would be concerned that the friction, especially were the line goes through the cringles, would make it hard to set tight. I've added a 20mm block at my leech cringle that helps. You could try the same at the luff cringle as well. Some details to work out to see what would be the best for you, but two lines may prove to more effective.

You're not missing anything, the stock rudder control is pretty basic. Having to reach over the transom to tighten the pivot is crude. Com-Pac does offer a rudder hold down system. I haven't tried it, but I'm sure others can fill you in.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=8217.0

My system is simple. A rod attached to the rudder passes through a pivoting block mounted on extended cheek plates that attach the tiller to the cast rudder head. The rod is clamped in the pivoting head to hold it at any position, up, down, or someplace in between, for shallow water for example. The clamping pressure is set so the rod can slide through the head if the rudder hits something. I've used the system since 2011, and have made some changes over that time. The bugs are worked out at this point. I'll post some photos, and would be glad to go into more detail if anyone is interested. I've since foiled my rudder, but the system still works well.

Another approach is to use a downhaul line in addition to the uphaul we have already. Running the line around the pintles/gudgeons is the challenge here. Some use a bungee on the downhaul, so it can give if the rudder strikes something, but it's critical to have the rudder in the full down position otherwise. If the rudder creeps up as the boat gains speed you'll have very pronounced weather helm, just as you have now if you leave your rudder pivot loose and don't install a pin.

[bruce]

Hi Tom,

I don't like clam cleats because the line can be dislodged so easily if something snags it. Com-Pac uses a clam cleat for the PC CB pendant, and I dropped the CB unexpectedly a couple of times before I replaced it. No damage, fortunately, but I don't like them in critical spots.

I saw those smaller lance cleats, but they appear to be lighter duty, with only 2 fasteners. RWO has some smaller 3-6 mm lance cleats with 4 fasteners as well. There may be a cheaper version that is suitable. Mine seem fine, not oversized.

[Zephyros]

My system is simple. A rod attached to the rudder passes through a pivoting block mounted on extended cheek plates that attach the tiller to the cast rudder head. The rod is clamped in the pivoting head to hold it at any position, up, down, or someplace in between, for shallow water for example. The clamping pressure is set so the rod can slide through the head if the rudder hits something. I've used the system since 2011, and have made some changes over that time. The bugs are worked out at this point. I'll post some photos, and would be glad to go into more detail if anyone is interested. I've since foiled my rudder, but the system still works well.

Bruce, your centerboard rod system is brilliant, please post more details.

[Zephyros]

I don't like clam cleats because the line can be dislodged so easily if something snags it. Com-Pac uses a clam cleat for the PC CB pendant, and I dropped the CB unexpectedly a couple of times before I replaced it. No damage, fortunately, but I don't like them in critical spots.

Bruce, please also tell me more about your replacement CB pendant cleat? I ordered a new one from Hutchins along with a new starboard mounting block as my teak one was cracked. The previous owner replaced the centerboard line and it never held in the old clam cleat so I was hoping a new one would hold. Before I drill my new starboard mounting block I may order whatever cleat you used.

[bruce]

Tom,

I'll deal with the CB cleat first. I'm not familiar with the SC cleat. I believe it's on the cockpit sole, ours is on top of our CB trunk, so I don't know if it would work for you. The new cleat is a Allen A4876 Thru Deck Cleat, a cam cleat that pivots. This was even harder to source, I had to order it from the UK. Another PC owner had one and I thought it was a great solution, so I rationalized the effort and expense. Don't judge!
https://usa.allensail.com/product/a4876-through-deck-small-swivel-ball-bearing-cam-cleat/?v=7516fd43adaa

For the rudder lift, I replaced the tiller cheek bars with the same stock, 2" x 3/16" 6061 aluminum, longer so they extend 3 1/2" beyond the aft edge of the rudder head. In development, I just attached a couple of new bars on top of the existing bars, you just need something to carry the pivot block clear of the rudder head. The last photo is of an earlier version.

I used 1 3/4" 6061 aluminum rod to make the pivot block. Initially I used Delrin, but the threads to receive the 3/8"-16 SS clamping stud failed. I used 1/4" shoulder screws for the pivots (McMaster Carr #91327A132). A 3/8" hole was drilled through the block to receive the 3/8" 7075 aluminum rod, clamped in the center by an adjustable handle with a threaded stud. The rod is threaded to receive the SS clevis rod end and the aluminum ball knob.

Early versions used 1/4" rod, but when I hit an uncharted obstruction in a channel with 8' of depth ay MLW, and the rod bent, I went to 3/8", in a harder and stiffer alloy (7075). I was also concerned with the metal clamp bearing on the rod that the rod would deform. I used a Teflon insert between the metals, and then a Delrin threaded clamping stud, and both were problematic. I've used the current clamp and rod combination since 2012 and, at the clamping forces involved, the rod isn't deformed. The tolerances are tight, so a few times a season I'll remove surface corrosion and lubricate the rod with Boeshield T-9 so it slides well.

A stack of curved disc springs apply tension on the clamping stud to keep it from vibrating loose. Now I might try a viscous lubricant like Tef-Gel. With a round clamping knob, it can be difficult to see if vibrations are causing the clamp to loosen. The orientation of the handle is easy to see. One thing that SC owners will have to evaluate is the chance of the end boom sheet fouling on the rudder lift. If it is a concern, selecting a more appropriate rod or clamp handle may help.

Any questions would be welcome.

[Zephyros]

Wow, your rudder lift is quite a feat of engineering, very nice, thank you for the insight, another item for my to do list.

Regarding the CB cleat, that is a nice unit and I see how it works on the PC. For the SC our clam cleat with 3/4" mounting board is flat to the sole so unfortunately the larger size of your unit may present a trip hazard on the SC.

[bruce]

That's what I thought would be the case. I guess having a wide open cockpit has its disadvantages!

[Zephyros]

Hi Bruce,

I looked more at the Allen product line for ideas and found this Through Deck Fairlead, however with the angle it will not fill the SC centerboard straight pendant:


But I ran with the idea and found this:


If I go with the idea I will use these parts to mount to my new Starboard CB block:

Ronstan Thru-Deck Bush S/S Lined Screw Mount 1/2" ID x 3/16"


Ronstan C-Cleat Carbon Cam Cleat, Medium, Yellow

[bruce]

Looks like a nice, low-profile and durable-to-foot-traffic set up. I looked at that bush when I was changing my CB cleat. One nice thing about the Ronstan cam cleats is they have accessories you can add. Com-Pac uses them as the halyard cleats on the PC, with a low-profile wire line guide in front of the cams, RF5404. That might be useful for you.
https://www.ronstan.com/marine/range.asp?RnID=063

In the link, they say the line guide fits the small cleat. My cleats are medium, 66 mm long, and there was a wire line guide available, at that time anyway.

[Zephyros]

Bruce, thanks for the link to the accessories. I like the yellow on the cam cleat for the visibility it would provide on the sole.

[Zephyros]

Can anyone tell me the specific size Ronstan Cheek Block, the size and length of the the rope used which will tell me the size of the clam cleat. Also size of the self taping screws to mount the hardware...basically the details needed to order that materials listed in the Cat Boat Manual. I assume the Ronstan series 20 is the right block for the job and will mount on boom without any modification. (They sell an adapter for mounting blocks on curved surfaces which I take is not needed.) Just don't want to mess this up...

Hello Byron,

Getting back to the Single Line Reefing, for the forward tack reef I was also looking at at the Ronstan series 20 and the Ronstan RF285 Series 29 Cheek Block in addition to the original Dwyer DH 908 cheek block currently on our Suncats. For reference, the Dwyer is a 27 mm (1 1/6") sheave.

If you add the cringle blocks, as Bruce described, then the reefing control line will be on just one side of the boom, therefore I was looking for a double cheek block for the tack reef line and came across this article and I liked the double cheek block they used (note the cringle loop in lieu of a block):
http://www.timtone.com/monty/singlelinereefing.htm


Racelite Stacked Double Cheek Blocks 5/16" (8mm)
https://www.duckworks.com/product-p/rl-708-ad.htm


The Racelite RL-708-AD is also a 27 mm (1 1/6") sheave, like the original Dwyer. I like the idea of the tack reef double cheek block to minimize the hardware, if the single line reefing presents problems in keeping both the luff and leeach tight then we could always revert back to the double line setup, just using one sheave of the forward double cheek block.