To Furl or Not to Furl

[mikemak]

Well, it seems that my 28 year old mainsail is not in as good a condition as I thought when I bought Chubby Buoy a month ago as I ended last weekend with a tear.  Don't know what it would cost to patch, but seeing as I can get a new main and jib or genoa set for $500.00, that would be the way to go.

Question is how much should I be paying for a furler?  Any advice by those of you who use one would be much appreciated.  Like everything else I'm sure there are pros and cons, so I and I'm sure many others who don't have furlers would like to hear them.  How is stepping the mast different?  Is it harder?  Can I still do it myself? Would you go with a furling jib or genoa (does it depend on the average wind levels?)

Many thanks to all who respond.

Regards,

Mike.

[CaptK]

Mike -

How's $10 sound?

Look in the Articles section, there's a How To that will show you.

[Craig]

Mike,

My two cents worth is if you dry sail put your money into two head sails (Jib and genoa) and forget the furler.  While I have not stepped a 16's mast with a furled headsail I have to believe anything extra just makes it harder.  I have a downhaul that allows me to douse the headsail from the cockpit.  The standard jib on the 16 is small enough that I don't think a roller is worth the money.  Use your money to buy a light wind headsail; genoa, drifter or spinnaker.

If you keep the boat in the water and use a genoa then a furler would be useful.

Craig

[Gil Weiss]

Hi Craig and group,

I am considering roller furling for next season. Since I keep the boat in the water all season I only have to deal with getting the mast up once.

When it is blowing 12 - 15 mph plus I typically sail on the main only. My CP16 goes fine this way and it makes for easier sailing when my wife reads or is in the relax mode. Yesterday was just such a day.

Can ones exisiting jib be modifed for roller furling or do you need to buy a new sail?

[Craig]

Gil,

It may depend on the roller-furler you buy, but I believe it is a common conversion.  CDI seems to be a popular brand for most daysail and overnight applications and I know I read somewhere about converting the jib to use with a CDI system.

Roller furling would make buttoning up the boat after a day's sail that much easier.  

Craig

[Craig]

Gil,

I'm waiting for my Idasailor rudder to arrive, so I was sailing yesterdy in 15 mph winds, with gusts around 20 with original flat plate rudder.  I've found the boat balances better when I reef the main and leave the jib up.  I have the old style roller reefing boom.  The sail shape is not good, but I have the ability to reef the main all the way down to the size of a hanky.  Have you found that the Idasailor rudder reduces weatherhelm when under main only?  I sometimes have trouble getting the bow to move through the wind under main only (forget tacking under jib only I have to jibe), does the new rudder help with that?

Craig

[Gil Weiss]

Yes, I find the foiled rudder helps under all conditions, sail set and even under power. Docking is even easier as I do not stall the boat after shifting into neutral to coast into my slip. I sail frequently on just the main when it is blowing as it makes things very simple and stable if I want to relax. ( I typically want to relax!) My wife always relaxes (lays down on one of these custom "chair" pads the boat stores sell these days) and reads while sailing so I am left with no working crew.

I have yet to try reefing my main. I only have one manual reef point. We went out Saturday in a cool cloudy and windy environment. The east wind was tearing down the "chute" to the left side of the marina. We motored off to the right side, raised the main and then sailed for a bit more than an hour going back and forth into the "wind chute". It was a blowin' and a few puffs were well over 20mph. Interestingly enough,  these blasts get your attention but they are not scary in a trusty CP16. But don't doze at the at the helm. I had to change sides after every tack on Saturday as I don't like driving from the low side of the boat.

Yesterday turned out sunny, warm and with a really nice 10-12 mph steady wind. We had a delightful day! We typicall get up to the boat after 12 noon, sail for a few hours then go back to the slip and relax on the boat for another hour or two before going out to dinner. It is like being on vacation! We are not looking forward to winter!

I hope the hurricanes stay away and the weather holds as I would like to stay in the water until late October.

[Paul]

Hey guys.   I found out a couple of weekends ago that the 16 really likes the 12 to 16 mph range.  Quite lively with a jib and main.  I did reef the main once, but found it sailed better with a full main.  Pointing was reasonably good compared to lighter wind conditions.  The trick I learned is balance.  Weather helm decreases as the boat is balanced.  If the wind piped up to 20, I pinched a bit and she behaved herself.  (My wife gave me handheld wind gauge as a birthday present a couple of years ago that I have enjoyed on such days.)

[bro t]

Hi Mike, et al.,

I have a roller reefing boom and an add-on furler for the smallest jib on my cp16.  I have spent as much time as possible whitecap sailing, as I need the adrenaline, and I can tell you that the furling jib has been of very little use to me, other than its ability to store ready to use.  It is not furling on the stay, which would be of far greater use to me, especially as I can envision a furling genoa to be the pinnacle of ease and versatility, since it has the essentials for all conditions heavier than a drifter or cruising spinnaker, and can be furled down to the size of a storm jib, if necessary.  I have never set one up, and have no idea of cost, but in a cp16, everything is fairly light and easy, so I'd be hard pressed NOT to at least price a furling headstay with sizeable genoa as an option if I were replacing the old sails.  As far as roller reefing on the boom, I would NEVER go without that!  Though the sail shape does suffer slightly when reefed, I have not had any problem with it, and remember, with that much wind blowing, sail shape is not going to much affect the boat's performance at that point, you'll have speed enough!  The distinct advantage of the roller boom is that it's quick, it's easy even singlehanded to head into the wind, release the halyard, take in a roll or two, (or a half a roll), yard up again, and go!  Also, with any amount of reefing of the main, you can release the downhaul, then yard up, then retighten the downhaul.  What this does is lift the boom higher for more headroom - nothing to me, but a courteous gesture for those on board over 6'2".  I have no idea what you'll need to retrofit on a rolling gooseneck, but you'll never regret it!  
    One more word about boat balance - I have not yet found, even in winds up to a steady 30 mph, that my hank on (larger) jib is too much sail forward.  Somewhere between 20 to 25, I start rolling the main, mostly not to push the rigging too hard, but also to reduce weather helm.  For those reading who don't know, the elements of balance here are the center of effort of the hull, and the center of effort of the sails.  The former is the point on the hull, which if you could pull on it with a rope, the hull would be perfectly balanced and not pull stern or bow around, but just stay perpendicular to the pull.  The latter has to do with the sail areas and sail trim, and points of sail attachment to the hull, which determine the center of effort of the wind upon the hull.  If the wind center is forward of the hull center, (a rare find in cp16's), then the bow will try to point off the wind, and to correct this you will have to put the tiller handle to leeward, thus "lee helm" condition.  (I recently experienced this under the most bizarre circumstance with my 85 year old father and 13 yo son in a steady 25mph blow.  We put up the small jib and first reef main, then cut the motor and went off on a starboard tack.  But when my boy couldn't get the motor up, I went back to try, but we were heeling 15 to 20 and I couldn't steer, balance, and hoist motor while in that position, so I decided to sail that way until we came about, but the motor dragging on the lee of the boat generated a tremendous lee helm and incredible braking action until a brief lull permitted us to recover...)  The much more common condition is where the center of effort of the wind is AFT of the hull center, and so the boat is trying to come up into the wind, which to fight off you are putting the tiller to windward slightly, and thus a condition known as "weather helm".  I was intrigued by the propositon in Royce's handbook that by balancing the sails, you could actually get a boat to steer itself!  After much experimenting, I know they are right!  But you can't always reef more sail, or put on a larger jib/genoa.  The other solution is to trim the sails differently.  Usually I try resetting the jib to optimum by letting it out, and bringing it in just till it stops luffing.  Then the same with the main, only very close to the point of luffing, and feel now the helm balance and if the boat is still tryng to point up, then tighten the jib sheet slightly and maybe even slack the main a bit until the balance is one finger touch perfect!  It really is a blast, and though the cp16 is such a breeze to sail, it still responds very well to appropriate trimming.  Sorry to be so wordy, but I hope this helps with your decision for your new rigging!
    bro t from Upwest Maine

[mikemak]

Yo Bro T -

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Couple of questions for  you.....

Where did you find a furling boom, how much, and what is involved with modifications? I too thought a roller furling genoa would be the way to go until I got some input that furling the genoa more than 15 - 20 % affect the shape of the sail adversely.  What are your thoughts about this?
Looking forward to your input again.

Mike.

[bro t]

Hi Mike,
there's an interesting note about foresail furling in the cp-19 forum, with a web link to some interesting looking reviews.  I glanced but didn't get too far....  Anyway, to answer, my cp16 came with a roller boom, but I think it is a simple retrofit if you already are using a slotted mast with a gooseneck on your boom.  I haven't looked for one on the web yet, but any marine supply should be able to give leads, or try the net.  All that should be involved is getting a new boom with the spring-loaded roller, then put your current gooseneck and sheetblock onto the new boom.  I've given more thought to the furling foresail, too, but I think unless you're going to be moored somewhere and just get on  and go, the furling headstay almost seems like a lot of extra trouble for those who are trailering to their voyages.  I can envision a furled jib trying to open while trailering or setting up, and then if you drop the jib/genoa to avoid this (or potential sail damage) you're spending a lot of money and not saving any time.  If I get a chance, I'll see what's online for booms.  Also, I was going to mention, but the hank-on jib actually fits nicely into a bag and we tie that to the forestay for storage sometimes while moored, or while overnighting.  we even leave the sheets in the fairleads, so it's a simple untie the bag and hoist the halyard to get underway.  Improving the boat is really fun, good luck finding what you want....
bro t from the soon-to-be-frozen north

[Craig]

Mike,

Check out this web site:
http://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=30&cat1Name=Booms&familyID=5&familyName=DM%2D275+Boom

Scroll down to item DH 355 1L, and you'll see the roller reefing gooseneck.  I believe Com-Pac uses Dwyer products but I don't know whether or not this is the right size.

I have the roller reefing boom on mine.  I agree with bro T that the sail shape ain't great, but you do get the ability to adjust the amount of sail reefed, rather than preset amounts like slab reefing.  To get better sail shape, and when I am feeling truly obsessive compulsive, I will roll up the main so that the wind is always coming against the roll.  That means unrolling and re-rolling the main every time I tack.  Too much, I know, but I was curious how much of a difference it made.

Craig

[mgoller]

Hi Mike,
I sailed a 16 last summer and moved up to the 19 this summer.  The 16/II had a hank on jib, a hank on genoa and I had an asymetrical spinnaker.  I felt pretty cool deciding which one to use and seeing that luff tight.  I rigged a downhaul line and that worked very well.  When the winds would be strong and I came back to port I would haul it down.
This summer I have a furling genoa.  I miss the bright white and tight jib.  A partially furled genoa is no match for a jib.  It just doesn't power the boat right.  It is easy though and less stressful when I have guests aboard that are uneasy when things get exciting.  I just pull on the furling line and the boat is de-powered.
I didn't buy the furler - it came with.  It is nothing fancy.  My suggestion is to skip it on the 16 and enjoy well set sails and install a simple downhaul line.  Tie one end to the head and run the loose end through a block tied off to the tack and then to the latch loop on the main hatch and tie it off.  Many times when I needed to pull the jib down the line had blown out of reach.  Single handing is a bit scary in strong winds when you really need the jib brought down.
Marcus

[multimedia_smith]

Hi Marcus,
I'm interested in perhaps getting a cruising asymmetric spinnaker or gennaker (sp?) for my 16.  On the one you used, did you have an extra (higher) pulley for the halyard.  I'm thinking it would be above the forestay and therefore fly in front of it as opposed to being hanked onto it.
Bwana Bob... have you done this with yours... in your book you write about it, but it's not clear if you used it on the 16 or the 19 (which has a headstay)
THanks ALL
Dale

[mgoller]

Hi Dale,
You will want to fly a spinnaker from the top of the mast, but I never checked to see if the shrouds on the 16 can handle a lot of load pulling forward.  I did it.  You could get a smaller spinnaker and fly it from the top of the jib halyard.  It is nice to have a separate system I think.

I use a very simple system on both the 16 and the 19.  At the top of the mast I have a stainless steel U bolt projecting towards the bow.  It is mounted on the aluminum thingy at the top of the anodized spar.  Through this I have a 1/4" halyard running in a loop to the bottom of the mast.  On this loop I have a bronze shackle.  
To deploy the spinnaker  I first have my 1/4" sheets set and running port and starboard outside the shrouds and forestay terminating in a shackle on the side of the foredeck where I will deploy the spinnaker.  The sheets are plenty strong and light to let the spinnaker fly like a kite.  The sheets are cleated at the stern port and starboard cleats.  I have a 1/4" tack line already on the spinnaker.  I attach this at the furthest point out on the bow which is a stainless ring on the sprit, (the thing that keeps the anchor from coming on board).  Depending on the point of sail this tack may be in tight or out three feet and on the same side of the forestay you want to deploy.  You'll adjust this in - the closer you are to the wind.
Then I attach the sheet shackle and the head shackle.  Pardon my novice sailing lexicon.  I try not to say "rope".  
Deploy the spinnaker by hoisting the halyard loop.  I have extra line in this loop so I can fly the spinnaker way out or in tight.  You don't have to use a loop but these lines have never gotten away from me and it is easy to bring the spinnaker down.
On my 19 I have a ring on a track at the front of the mast.  I run the halyard loop through this ring.  I use this ring to tie a slip knot in the halyard.
The only problem I have is when tacking the sheets usually get tangled on the bowsprit.  Helps to have help.
Its easier to jibe and let the spinnaker billow out in front and pull it around with the other sheet as you change over to the other tack.   There is almost no load on the spinnaker when jibing this way.  make sure your sheets are long enough to allow the spinnker to fly all the way out and still make it back to the stern.  This may be 35'.
I don't like using the spinnaker unless I am going to stay on a tack for at least 10 minutes.  But it is really fun to fly it and it is very pretty.
I also concocted a chute system for the 16 using a sewn bag about 5 feet long and tied to the deck house cleat.  I could douse the spinnker by pulling on a dousing line which collapsed the spinnaker into the bag.  It could only be doused if it was flying on the starboard side.  The dousing line ran through the chute and was the halyard.  Pulling on the halyard would hoist and pulling on the douser would allow the halyard to fall.
I bought used spinnakers that were resewn to be asymetric.  About $300.  Masthead Enterprises.
Have fun.