Has anyone had experience with Torqeedo or ePropulsion 3 hp electric motors? I have a
SunDay Cat 17.
I have had it with gas motors, and do not need the hassle anymore. And the range and runtimes of the electrics is adequate. However, I need to know more about reliability and durability, etc.
Many Thanks
Bub,
I've used both motors over the past 3 years. There is a good bit of content on the list, here's a couple of links to get you started. I'm sure any specific questions you have will be answered promptly.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=11942.0
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=12060.0
This British dealer stocks both the Torqeedo and ePropulsion motors, and compares them fairly, IMHO.
https://nestawayboats.com/shop/epropulsion-spirit-plus-1kw-electric-outboard/
https://nestawayboats.com/shop/torqeedo-travel-1003s-1103cs/
Both lines have new models out. The Torqeedo 1103C replaces the 1003C. It now has a brushless direct-drive motor (as do the Spirits) so it is a little quieter and less prone to error codes that were intended to protect the geared drive in the 1003C. Note the larger motor bulb (than the 1003C and Spirits), that potentially may cause interference with rudders.
The Spirit 1.0 Plus has a larger battery than the 1.0 (and 40% more than the 1103C), is easier to hook up to remote battery packs and solar chargers, and has an improved SS battery connector that proved vulnerable in earlier models. The EVO version includes the above, plus the ability to generate power while sailing: 50W @ 4 kts (min), 140W @ 6 kts, 260W @ 8 kts, and 360W @ 10 kts (max). Still not great for typical SC speeds, and the drag is going to be a factor, but regen is getting better.
The connector issue on the Spirit has been addressed. In my experience, both companies have been very responsive to questions or issues I've had. I have no idea what availability is these days, being new models.
I forgot to mention that if you're interested in a remote throttle vs. a tiller, as these motors are most commonly shown, you have fewer options. I much prefer the remote, I don't need another tiller.
The Torqeedos are sold with the tiller, the remote can be purchased as an accessory. It is hard wired.
The Plus doesn't have a remote option. The EVO can be ordered either way, and can be converted if you change you mind. Previous Spirit models were one or the other, no conversion possible. The remote is Bluetooth, with a cable for back up. There is a slight delay when starting the Spirit as the remote and motor sync, I still prefer the wireless vs. the wired.
Bruce covers a lot of the information and research you can do.
We have been using the Torqueedo (older model) for several years on a Sun Cat, with great results. I can only recall one time that an error code popped up and kept the motor from running briefly, while I reset the connection to the motor. We have been in serious wind and chop without overwhelming the motor when going upwind to douse the sail (though I will admit we were pretty near topped out that time in 3'chop and gusts to 30+).
We use the remote throttle, and pop the motor throttle arm on briefly for maneuvering in and out of our slip, but it would be an inconvenience while under way.
We started with one battery, the lower capacity one. This left us with a bit of range anxiety, and we picked up a spare, larger size, a year or so after purchase; a factory recall of the old battery and a favorable deal has left us with 2 high capacity batteries and range far beyond anything we will use with our close-to-home sailing. We typically use about 10% or less of our capacity on any given outing, from slip to nearby open water and back.
We found a local dealer for the original purchase, but they quit carrying Torqueedo by the time we picked up the second battery, from Defender Marine.
Feel free to post your specific questions and concerns.
Love my eProp, and relatively few problems, most of which were fixed on the recent upgrades. Besides being reliable, you can have normal volume conversations while motoring. I'm looking for a 30-35 foot boat now and the thing holding me back is having to go back to internal combustion. Once you're past it, you don't want to return.
I'd think that in a boat of that size, normal conversation would be quite possible. A correctly sized and properly maintained diesel can be dependable and efficient. Or you could, like Lin and Larry Pardey go engineless!
Bob23
We have a Torqeedo on our SunCat, which is moored, in season, on a small lake in upstate NY. It works fine to get us out into the lake to raise sail, or to just putter around. I'm not sure I'd want to rely on it to get home against a strong tidal current, for example. Battery life is VERY dependent on speed. At low speed you might have hours to run. At top speed you can run it out in maybe half an hour. I love the quiet and low maintenance and not dealing with internal combustion. That said, It does not have the guts of our old 5 hp Honda. Also, our mooring field gets very weedy later in the season, and the Torqeedo gets bound up with weeds much faster than the Honda did- probably a function of both power and prop design. So mixed feelings, but overall happy with the electric for our application. And my wife isn't intimidated and adverse to driving the boat with it as she was with the gas motor- it's just friendlier. And unlike its predecessor, it starts every time!
Quote from: Renae on January 10, 2022, 06:40:33 PM
I'm looking for a 30-35 foot boat now and the thing holding me back is having to go back to internal combustion.
Not sure of your plans and motoring needs (Great Loop, probably not!), but there are conversion kits available. Thunderstruck is popular.
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/electric-sailboat-kits-and-accessories-inboard-motor-ev/
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, there's good content here on DIY projects. A degree in engineering would be useful, but not required to join! Thunderstruck is often mentioned.
https://groups.io/g/electricboats/topics
Plugboats puts out guides for various aspects of electrical propulsion for boats. Here's the one for inboards.
https://plugboats.com/electric-inboard-boat-motors-guide-over-150-motors/
I do like DIY, but I think a kit would work better for me.
Quote from: DanM on January 11, 2022, 06:42:43 AM
Battery life is VERY dependent on speed. At low speed you might have hours to run. At top speed you can run it out in maybe half an hour.
This is true, and if a distance needs to be covered speed is not indicated (and head winds and chop are also an issue). Before we had some depth in our battery system (one battery, low capacity, well below 50% remaining) we were a ways off from the ramp on the last day of the season when the wind died back significantly. Torqueedo tells you your potential distance at a given speed, and we started to motor in. I asked the guy I was with if he thought we were more than 2 miles from the ramp...and he suggested we slow down even more. That day, though, we learned that these boats "motor-sail" quite well, and leaving the sail up we could see our range increase with every little puff of wind and we came in at a reasonable speed with a bit of battery left.
The difference in general, though, in decreasing speed from full throttle, going maybe 5+ mph in calm water, and the same conditions at 4 is quite dramatic, and the sweet spot for good range and getting back to port for cocktails seems to be around 3.5 for us, if the wind dies far from harbor.
I've found I motor sail more often with the electric OB as well. Easier to start than the gas or propane motors I've used, and quiet, just drop it in the water and go. Reassuring when clearing the shipping channel on a calm day as traffic approaches faster than you'd estimated, or limp home as you describe.
Hi,
I changed to a Sunday cat with a Torqedo 1003 last fall and the best part is now I don't hesitate to do a day sail at the drop of the hat.
Took some visitors out the Sunday after Christmas...when I used a gas motor, my motor would have been winterized and I would hesitate to use it during the cold season.
I have added a jumper that will allow the Torqedo battery to charge fom the boat 12v battery and plan to test that as a range extender this spring.
Even if I cannot run the torqedo while the boat 12v is plugged in...I expect that I could add charge to the torqedo battery when the motor is off while I am sailing....
Like I said, I haven't really tested that feature yet. But I did fully charge the torqedo battery from the boat 12v after the "Boxing Day" outing.
Regards,
Steve
what is this "winterizing" thing? lets see i run the carb dry on my johnson 2 stroke and put it on a stand in my garage. i guess if i want to use it at a moments notice i would have to put it on the boat, and hook up the gas tank. wow, that is a lot of work. long live the two stroke. i know this will get a rise out of some. let the fun begin
Thanks for all the responses. Bruce and perhaps others have experience with both brands.
I have spoken with the ePropulsion dealer who suggested the Spirit Evo.
If I understand it:
1 the Evo Remote prop does not need to be raised above the waterline while Sailing to prevent damage to the motor.
2 the wired remote can be mounted in any location desired by the owner.
3 if the owner later desires to operate with tiller that part can be separately mounted. ( I doubt I would do this as long as my use is on a Sunday Cat because the tiller version appears awkward mounted beside the Sunday Cat tiller, correct?)
Again, thanks for all the discussion and links provided
Bub
Here's my take.
1 - That's my understanding, but I would still plan on raising and tilting the motor out of the water, unless you want regen, to reduce drag and wear on the motor. I have had problems tacking when dragging the motor. Similar to trying to tack without some centerboard down for lateral resistance to pivot on.
2 - Yup, the remote can be anywhere in the cockpit and still be in wireless range with my Spirit. I'm not sure how long the back-up cable for the remote with the EVO is, but I see longer communication cables listed as accessories. The side-mount remote wasn't available when I bought mine. I mounted the remote on a piece of 3/4" StarBoard with a very soft silicone rubber non-skid on the bottom. It grips both gelcoat and varnished wood well, and doesn't slide around.
3 - Again, that's my understanding. As I mentioned, it was either/or when I bought mine. I do find it handy to steer with the motor around the dock. I just twist the motor and point it where I want to go. Easier with a tiller, but not difficult, and no second tiller in the way the rest of the time. I don't know how easy it is to switch from remote to tiller, and if it can be done on the fly as Jim does with his Torqeedo.
Thanks Bruce. Pictures very helpful.
In looking at my Sunday Cat it looks like the remote could be mounted midship on the rear deck outside the cockpit. Then sped and direction could be controlled from helm on either side.
Any thoughts on that?
I don't if you've seen Renae's set up on his SC. I believe the remote and cup holders are screwed down.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?topic=12113.0
I think I know where you're thinking on your Sunday Cat, aft of the coaming. That looks pretty exposed to me. Even if hard mounted, it would be easy to bump when tending the motor or rudder, or foul a slack sheet or line. I'd keep it in the cockpit.
https://www.gisails.com/boatpictures/sundaycat/494
My remotes, both the Torqeedo and Spirit, were loose in the cockpit, usually under the tiller. That worked fine with the silicone non-skid. The second photo shows a cup holder I made with the silicone non-skid being tested on a glass door. I wouldn't trust a drink in it, but... Send me a PM with your mailing address and I can send you a sample to test.
I have used Sticky Pod suction cup for mounting equipment to smooth gelcoat surfaces in the cockpit. They've been discontinued it seems, but these look equivalent.
https://www.amazon.com/Herco-Diameter-Neoprene-Female-Threaded-Suction/dp/B00J5M3J70
Just purchased a leftover 1103 Torqeedo to make the switch on my Sunday Cat. Fuel issues have gotten me for the last time on this boat! Great information on here about all the options and issues. Can't wait to get it on and out sailing!
Thanks Bruce
I agree about the mount aft of the coaming being problematic.
So you use the Starboard pictured earlier (copper/orange) to prevent skidding, but used the suction cup for a more quasi permanent location?
If so, how does the suction cup attach to the bottom of the remote?
Bub
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things. The suction cups I used for other gear, VHF radios for example.
With the remote, you could attach them to a platform like the StarBoard. One would be kind of floppy, so maybe 2, 3, or 4. The suction would be secure, but there would still be some flex in the mount that might be annoying. I'd do a mock up with plywood scrap to test the concept before getting too fussy making a presentable platform.
The self-adhering, 1/16" silicone rubber keeps it from slipping around, and tight enough so you can work the lever with one hand. The lever is actually a little stiff on the Spirit remote. The remote is right down on the gelcoat, so no flexing.
No problem!! Gave me a better idea about my handheld!
So the self adhering silicone comes with the Remote?
From the picture it appears to screw into the underside of the remote into pre drilled threaded holes?
The remote comes as first pictured on the left. As you say, it comes with threaded inserts for fastening to the remote to something. The 3/4" black StarBoard platform with the red silicone adhered to it I added.
The silicone is from McMaster-Carr, part #9010K42 (same as 9010K421). Not cheap, but I've used if for 10 years or so, indoors and out, and find lots of uses for it. It also come in 1/32" which may be enough. The 10A durometer rating is key, it's so soft that it conforms to the surface and cohesion holds it in place. It can get dirty over time, with dust, etc., just wash it of and it grips like new. I probably clean the remote base once or twice a season. It feels like a firm gel, easy to cut but more durable than you think. Again, I can send a small sample to play with to anyone interested. I'm sure there are are other soft rubbers that would work.
https://www.mcmaster.com/9010K42/
https://www.mcmaster.com/rubber/backing-type~adhesive/for-use-outdoors~yes/color~red/hardness-rating~soft/
McMaster Carr is great, love their online catalog. If their NJ warehouse has what I ordered I'll have it next day in RI. They stock a marine-grade HDPE, like StarBoard, that would work. The platform adds a little heft to the remote, feels more substantial.
https://www.mcmaster.com/plastics/for-use-outdoors~yes/comparable-to~seaboard/
Check your My Messages, I sent you something related.
Bub,
Try a few spots and put it where it makes the most sense for you.
My solution was to remove the cushion under the tiller--no one sits there anyway, so it's really a spacer. I made a tray and leave my remote bolted to it (my boat always sleeps in the barn at night). From that spot, it pairs every time with the motor upswung.
And, as for that, swing it up when you sail. Why add drag and noise? It takes almost no effort the old fashioned way, and if you want to get fancy, Bruce has a hack for you.
Renae
Thank you. Great solution!
Bub
It was a one day project and only took that long because I had never worked with King Starboard and followed the "measure 458 times, cut once (okay twice, tops)" principle. I just saw that Bruce linked my old post. I've moved the cupholders forward since then. Nice compromise for taller cups fitting under the tiller. I round-over routed the tray so your leg can transgress the corner without feeling a hard edge.
I could cut in the cupholders, but just screwing them down works for me.
Quote from: bruce on January 12, 2022, 02:43:57 PM
I don't if you've seen Renae's set up on his SC.
One would think the -ae spelling would be a giveaway, but apparently not. :P
One more thing...I actually leave the motor pinned straight, which makes raising and lowering so much easier IMO. I don't need to turn in less than a boat length and it works fine on the lakes I sail.
Quote from: Renae on January 14, 2022, 12:13:48 AM
It was a one day project and only took that long because I had never worked with King Starboard and followed the "measure 458 times, cut once (okay twice, tops)" principle. I just saw that Bruce linked my old post. I've moved the cupholders forward since then. Nice compromise for taller cups fitting under the tiller. I round-over routed the tray so your leg can transgress the corner without feeling a hard edge.
I could cut in the cupholders, but just screwing them down works for me.
I must admit this reminded me of a frequent line we used often when I was building our house (I am not a carpenter): "I cut it twice and it's still too short."
Thanks to all who have responded. After considering all the comments which were VERY helpful, drilling down into the websites, and talking with the Vendors directly I settled on the ePropulsion Spirit Evo model. Placed my order and am waiting for confirmation of shipping date.
Once again, I appreciate the fact that this forum exists, and that owners are generous with sharing their experiences and expertise. After installing and using, I'll provide my impressions. Currently it?s a bit too cold to go sailing for some of us thin blooded folks, but that should pass soon.
All the Best
Bub
Very exciting, Bub! I look forward to hearing about your experience with the Evo.
I, too, will be interested in your experience. When we bought the Torqueedo I don't think ePropulsion was yet an option, and both motors have evolved quite a bit in the last couple years. In today's market I doubt that you can go wrong with either of them, and it boils down to features and preferences.
The weakest point (which bit both Bruce and me) on the Evo Spirit original model was the plastic fitting on the battery cable which was reportedly changed to metal on the next model. Other than that, you have to remove the battery to pin the motor. Bruce found a workaround that functions for him, and my sailing environment allows me to leave it pinned straight at all times--the turning radius is still more than adequate.
This reply is a little late but may still be relevant to someone, besides it's time I quit lurking and contributed something. I bought a Suncat new in 2017 and fitted it out with a Torqeedo Cruise 2 T long shaft and 26-104 24 volt lithium battery. The battery fits nicely under the stern seat and while you can run the cables out the drain in the lower port side of the space I ran the battery and control cables through a thu-hull fitting on the port aft coaming. I moved the motor mount up 5" to accomadate the long shaft motor. The prop would drag with the motor up in the original motor mount position. A short shaft motor in the original position would clear with the motor up but the head would mostly be below the deck when lowered. The modified mount works well with the long shaft motor in both positions. I replaced the tiller with a remote throttle mounted on the gallows and extendable shaft mounted higher on the motor head. I usually steer with the rudder but in tight spots steering with the motor is quicker.
At full throttle the boat will do about 5 1/2 mph and last about 50 minutes, 90% throttle is 5 mph and 90 minutes, and 70% is 4 mph and 4 hours. The run times are based on the computer estimate since I've never run the battery below 40% capacity. I've cruised for 2 or 3 hours and still had half the battery capacity left. The system works really well for me. Torqeedo has dropped the the motor and battery I have and replaced it with the Cruise 3 motor and slightly higher capacity battery. This should be able to drive the boat to hull speed and probably keep the range much the same
Update. My ePropulsion Spirit Evo arrived yesterday. I took time to peruse the Owner?s Manual before doing anything (that might be a First for me!). Charged the battery which took about 5 hours. Weather today is warmer than average, so I plan to wrestle my 5hp kicker off the transom and set the new motor up and test. The Sunday Cat hangs in a sling out of the water so I may need to wait for my ?assistant? to be available. Stay tuned.
Bub
Excellent! You will quickly appreciate that the Evo and battery both weigh about 20 lbs. each. Easy, once you get the 5 HP out of the way.
No water pump, so you can run the motor out of the water. Eventually the motor could heat up, but not for a while. And, of course you can sync the remote with the motor anytime, wet or dry, to test the connection.
Quote from: bruce on February 03, 2022, 01:41:14 PM
No water pump, so you can run the motor out of the water.
Second on that. The only consequence of running it dry is loss of charge. I always run mine in the parking lot before splashing in just to make sure I'm sync'd and ready for the water.
Update on EPropulsion Spirit EVO. Since my last post I?ve set it up on my Sunday Cat and run 3 or 4 ?Sea trials? to get accustomed to it. There are a few observations I?ll share here.
Overall I am very pleased with the purchase. It actually is a bit more involved in the setup, operation, and charging than meets the eye. That is due to the fact that it?s mounted on a fixed transom bracket off the stern, and my boat is out of the water on a Davit Master cradle lift, with no walkway access to the stern.
This makes recharging the battery and reconnecting the tiller or remote throttle communication cable very awkward, as the access cables to the motor are not well located. This of course or irrelevant if you?re dry sailing, or if the motor is mounted directly on the transom, and it?s a unique situation that others may not experience.
Despite all that, it?s far better than dealing with the 5hp four stroke. It actually starts EVERY TIME
and you can barely tell it?s on. I did experience a surprising drop in battery range when the display dropped from 65% to under 10% in a matter of 20 minutes. I had enough charge to get home and was concerned about the cause. The Vendor was very responsive and all is in order.
In fact I have reached out to the Dealer several times to get guidance on matters when the Owners Guide was poorly written. He has been readily accessible every time, patient, knowledgeable and if there was any question about my purchase, it was erased by our interactions. I could not recommend the service more highly.
Bub
Yeah, the first time I used the Torqeedo 1003 (same power draw as the Spirit) I consumed 10% of the battery in 100 yds., over a few minutes. That was at full power. I quickly learned to monitor my usage.
Heading out I use about 10% capacity to go about 1 NM at about 60% power, about 3.5 kts, to get to our sailing grounds. I want to retain capacity for any contingencies. Once I'm heading back I'm less concerned and will run at about 75%, about 4.3 kts. If I've only used the motor for the 1 NM return, I'll have 70-75% remaining. Plenty extra for light wind conditions.
A bit of a thread drift here but the March/April 2022 edition of WoodenBoat magazine has a few good articles on electric power. Check it out
bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on March 09, 2022, 07:36:44 PM
A bit of a thread drift here but the March/April 2022 edition of WoodenBoat magazine has a few good articles on electric power. Check it out
bob23
Similarly Good Old Boat current edition (March/April 2022) is all about electric propulsion (mostly inboard).
Jon
No discussion would be complete without checking out Elco, started right here in NJ!
https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/
Some good content in the articles mentioned. That rudder mount on the Mayflower II replica shallot (5-ton tender) is pretty funky.
No horror stories storing the Spirit 1.0. The owner's manual has you recharge the battery after use, but then the battery management system will discharge the battery a few percent a day (100mA, 75% after 20 days) if there is no use to keep things happy. They recommend that the battery be at 60% at the start of storage, and the programed discharge will bring it to that level so no extra steps are required. Every 3 months in storage, they recommend recharging the battery above 60% so the charge doesn't get too low. Charging to 100% at that point isn't going to hurt.
The programed discharge could be annoying at times, when plugging the charger in isn't convenient/possible. The newer Spirit models have reportedly made the solar charging requirements less proprietary, making third-party solutions more feasible. That might be a solution for Bub on his lift.
Hi Bub,
What shaft length did you get? I have a Sunday cat.
Also did you pick it up from dealer or have it shipped. Looks like the closest one to me in in Annapolis.
Hoping to get the 1.0 plus in early April.
Regards,
Mike
Mike,
If you want the remote throttle it looks like you'll need to go with the Evo, according to the ePropulsion website.
Thanks Bruce - I think I'll go with standard throttle and be able to move to other boats.
OK, just a heads up, these big, electronic tillers have their own issues. I've seen it with the Torqeedos and the ePropulsions.
Verify that you can tilt the motor clear of the water with the tiller extended when sailing. Even with an adjustable motor mount I think you'll need to tilt it. You'll probably have to rotate the motor 90 degrees to the side for the tiller to stay clear of the coaming. The tiller looks to pivot up only about 20 degrees.
The Spirit Plus tiller can be folded down along the axis of the motor for transport. Underway, with the motor vertical and tiller folded down, I think the electronic controls would get wet, possibly dunked, even with the motor mount at its highest position.
Hi Mike
I also have a SunDay Cat. Purchased the long shaft which seems about right. My outboard bracket actually drops below the profile of the rear deck. Even with that location I think the short shaft would cavitate.
I compared the tiller and the remote with communication cable. Decided on the remote. As Bruce points out, the limited tilt for the Tiller is a negative. In addition you cannot read the control panel while seated unless you use the Remote.
I had mine shipped to me. Purchased from Sky Blue Adventures in Florida. Reps name is Luis. Outstanding service, advice and accessibility.
Best of luck
Bub
Hi Bruce,
As always - thank you for your advice.
At about 3:30 into the video shows a 75 degree tile angle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns6fSqH3xG0
Will need to rotate the tiller to get it up. I also had to do that with the trolling motor. The ePropulsion is much larger though.
Anyone else have comment on this?
Still looking for shaft length comments.
Right, it tilts normally once the tiller is out of the way. It will mean that you can't readily use the fixing pin, that some prefer, that locks the motor center lined. That requires removing the battery. But, I'm not trying to talk you out of it!
On our PC, the long shaft is best, and doubt you'd want to go shorter on a Sunday Cat. I use one up from the full down setting on the motor mount. If it gets choppy, I'll go full down to mitigate the cavitation. I had a short shaft on a Lehr 2.5 because that was all they offered. Too short.
On our Sun Cat I am pretty sure the short shaft would have been too short in difficult (choppy) situations and maybe more often than that. The long drags ever so slightly when under way (tilted up). Raising the adjustable mount would alleviate that but it is more trouble to change that while sailing to make it worth the trouble. Bottom line, I think the long shaft is almost certainly your best bet.
I also agree that the remote is a great and, for me, important addition. It keeps all of the control for speed and forward/reverse
(and all of the information on state of charge etc) handy. I do put the tiller arm on for maneuvering in and out of the slip, after trying with the motor pinned straight, as Bruce points out, and found I needed the control offered by the motor getting in and out of a slip, especially if there is a cross wind. I keep the tiller handy and just slip it on, keeping the remote wired to the motor (Torqueedo is hard wired).
Today was my first sail of 2022 and the first sail using my new ePropulsion Spirit 1.0 Plus long shaft.
Sailed for 60 minutes until the wind died than had a pleasant "motor" for 60 minutes around Union Lake in southern New Jersey. I found the best power setting was about 250 watts which gave me a run time of 5 hours and moved me at close to hull speed. This is MUCH better than the 55lb thrust trolling motor.
Didn't realize until I reread the manual that the BMS reduced the charge to 60% over time. Was able to top it off in 3 hours.
Only used one "bar" of battery life during my trip.
A very happy customer.
Regards,
Mike
Yeah, the Torqeedo 1003C loaner I had didn't do that. I don't know what they might do these days with the new models. It seems to be a reasonable protocol for battery management, but a bad surprise for those who hadn't heard, or don't have good access to recharging. In that case, augmenting with solar seems a good idea. I've mentioned it, but it isn't the first thing people are thinking about.
I recharge after use, and top it off the night before I'm going out again. A couple of hours usually does it, so first thing in the morning if I've forgotten is often enough.
Here is an update on the eProp on my Sunday Cat. I have taken 3 ?Sea Trials? motoring only to check out all the nuances and because sailing conditions haven?t been the best. Because my transom has a curved shape, I?ve needed to shim the motor to avoid excessive weather helm and I?ve tweaked it enuf to be acceptable. As you can imagine the degree of helm varies greatly with speed and tidal direction but adjusting the centerboard provides decent correction.
Yesterday I did my first Sea Trial under sail. All went well, but the weather helm still needs attention. I cannot raise the motor free of the water, so I?m dealing with this under power as well as sail.
NOW another question. The battery storage temperature parameters are too narrow for my climate, especially summer. It isn?t clear if these parameters are only for long term storage (as over the winter) or also include a few weeks leaving the battery in place on the transom on a boat lift. I?m in Coastal Georgia and temps in the summer run high 80s to mid 90s.
Thanks. Bub
Regarding temperature range, my manual says 32º to 113º when charging, and 14º to 140º when discharging. The top end isn't a problem for us, but I often don't bring the battery in from the unheated garage until December, since there might (in theory) be a day we want to launch it one more time. I'm sure the motor's been below freezing, but probably not down to 14º
I haven't seen a problem.
Launched my Sunday Cat on Thursday and overall, the Torqeedo was a success. Operator error with throttle did launch the boat onto the kayak dock, thankfully it's made of plastic. The silence also made me think the motored died a couple of times as well. It'll be a great motor for my 5min motor, but she did struggle going into a 20mph headwind with 1-2ft chop from marina to house. Full throttle delivered a max speed of 2.4mph in those conditions. The rhythmic hum of the motor through the hull reminded of a diesel which I enjoyed. Now to get the sail on and actually go sailing.
Bruce. I see your reply on the question I raised about temp ranges for battery storage. Sorry but this
Liberal arts guy doesn?t understand. I think you are quoting charging and discharging rates.
I am questioning the acceptable ambient temperature ranges to avoid damage to the battery during
1 outside, on boat non use of the motor of a few weeks versus
2 long term storage, for example 3-4 months of winter storage
Thank you as always.
Bub
Hey Bub, that's all I see in the manual. I don't see temperature ranges for storage of the battery. I do see temperatures ranges specified for storage of the charger, -40º to 167º, and for its operation, -20.2º to 113.9º. Sorry, I haven't a clue why they'd specify storage conditions for the charger and not the battery.
Another way to look at it is the battery is discharging if it is in use, or just idle, including in storage, due to the BMS protocol. So, the battery is always charging or discharging, and ranges are specified for those times. Of course, I'm looking at the manual that came with my Spirit 1.0, version 1.2, dated March 2019. That may have changed with the newer models. You mentioned your dealer was helpful, you might ask him to verify.
Thx Bruce
Are the unusual symbols next to your numeric -40 to 167 indicating DEGREES celsius?. Symbols such as quote marks or parenthesis get converted to some completely different symbol on my iPad so I wonder if it can?t read the symbol for DEGREE correctly. Crazy, huh?
As for the dealer, he was puzzled as I was and I haven?t heard back yet.
Bub
Huh, no they're degrees Fahrenheit, degrees being "option 0" on my Mac keyboard. They display properly for me here on the forum, so I didn't see it as a source of confusion.
I have noticed that your apostrophes become question marks, at least they didn't get creative with the numbers! Leave it to the technologists to mess up perfectly simple punctuation marks.
if these things ever become affordable im on board, until then 2 stroke power
Bruce. Thanks for clarifying. I was assuming that, but it?s good to know.
Leave it to the techno geeks to confuse mere mortals.
Quote from: bruce on March 13, 2022, 11:17:36 AM
Right, it tilts normally once the tiller is out of the way. It will mean that you can't readily use the fixing pin, that some prefer, that locks the motor center lined. That requires removing the battery. But, I'm not trying to talk you out of it!
On our PC, the long shaft is best, and doubt you'd want to go shorter on a Sunday Cat. I use one up from the full down setting on the motor mount. If it gets choppy, I'll go full down to mitigate the cavitation. I had a short shaft on a Lehr 2.5 because that was all they offered. Too short.
I have been deliberating changing out the old Honda 5hp for an ePropulsion or Torqeedo on my Sun Cat, so this thread has been invaluable. A website / blogger that I follow is Tom Ray of Tropical Boating https://www.tropicalboating.com/ who at one time had a Sun Cat and now has a Picnic Cat. I?m not sure if he is a member of this group, but he had a recent post about adding a ePropulsion motor on his Picnic Cat. He has some good pictures on the topic of shaft length and the tiller / motor bracket height, etc. https://www.tropicalboating.com/2021/11/epropulsion-electric-outboard-on-a-picnic-cat
If you stroll through his website, you?ll also find some other excellent articles on mods that he made to his Sun Cat when he owned it. Great website!
Yeah, Tom was active here, and on the TSBB, back when he owned a SC. He worked for Gulf Island Sails, a Com-Pac dealer, and was always a good resource for things Com-Pac and SC mods.
https://cpyoa.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3902
The big issue with electric OBs is the prop diameter. With a high torque, low RPM motor, bigger is better. The prop diameter on my Honda 2 and Lehr 2.5 is 6-7", the Spirit is 11". The motor bulb on the new Torqeedo 1103 is much larger than the previous 1003C, and the Spirit models, old and new. Not sure of the new prop diameter. On the Honda 2, Torqeedo 1003C and the Spirit 1.0, the LS works fine. The Lehr 2.5 was only available in the SS, and cavitation in choppy conditions was a problem.
The clearance for the tiller has always been an issue with the Torqeedo and Spirit. I much prefer a remote throttle. I don't need a second tiller, and I can steer with the motor around the dock just fine without the tiller. The current Sprit 1.0 Plus isn't available with that option, but the Spirit Evo is. I'd have to check the Torqeedo 1103.
I agree on the value of the remote throttle on our Torqueedo powered Sun Cat. I do slip the "regular" tiller on when coming into our slip, for extra maneuverability.
Of particular interest to you electric propulsion guys is the recent Woodenboat Magazine article where an ePropulsion Pod Drive was installed in a Haven 12 1/2. I think this is very doable for our Compacs and would even work nicely for my 23, not that I'm about to make that leap just yet.
Cheers,
Bob23
Quote from: Bob23 on August 25, 2022, 07:18:25 AM
Of particular interest to you electric propulsion guys is the recent Woodenboat Magazine article where an ePropulsion Pod Drive was installed in a Haven 12 1/2. I think this is very doable for our Compacs and would even work nicely for my 23, not that I'm about to make that leap just yet.
Cheers,
Bob23
Until recently I've never had any interest in electric propulsion considering it too expensive and range limited. I recently toured a boat in my marina, and old Easterly 36 that had converted from diesel to electric inboard. The cost was reasonable and the owner is very satisfied with the performance. I looked up the size that would be required for a 23 and was shocked at how much electric had come down. The package was small enough that I could keep my custom drawer cooler under the companionway steps with the motor being behind it. I would, of course, have the additional expense of installing a cutlass bearing, packing gland, and shaft, but if I went electric I think that would be my choice. Better weight distribution, clearing the clutter at the transom, and whisper quiet.
Quote from: Bob23 on August 25, 2022, 07:18:25 AM
Of particular interest to you electric propulsion guys is the recent Woodenboat Magazine article where an ePropulsion Pod Drive was installed in a Haven 12 1/2.
We just got our print copy of WB 288 this week. I've always been fond of the Herreshoff 12 1/2. As a kid, I first sailed on a Bullseye, a full-keeled fiberglass version of the 12 1/2, and a Sailfish.
I agree with brackish, engineering-wise I'd prefer an electric inboard, especially if there was a diesel already, or the boat was designed to accommodate a diesel. If that wasn't the case, but there was room under the cockpit sole for a motor, shaft, et al, that could be accessed through a deck plate and didn't require a box build out at the helm, I'd go that way. Components more readily sourced and swapped out if a problem develops.
The electric pod design is very versatile, easy to mount and seal. All you're running are a cable or two through the hull, and the battery and controls can go anywhere without alignment issues. That said, having the motor and associated electronics in a bulb underwater, projecting unsupported from the hull, no matter how well it's sealed, seems less durable. A problem with the pod will probably require replacement of the single-sourced pod, likely with more supply issues than with the inboard option.
In this installation on the Haven 12 1/2, the keel-hung rudder precludes mounting the pod on the centerline aft of the keel. (I'm sure they could work around framing issues with the wooden keel.) Mounting the pod off to the side has too many issues for me. The pod is fully exposed to impact or a stray line. The drag of the pod and non-folding prop when sailing would be significant. Backing this thing will be a bear, at least you can steer with an outboard mounted off center. Outboards aren't pretty, but that would be my choice here.
An easily-mounted pod, located on the centerline behind the keel, could really do well in a lot of current boat designs I think. With associated equipment and cables, the whole system would be much less challenging to install than an inboard and prop, unless you were replacing as existing inboard.
For yucks, I ran a few prices. The 1 kW Pod Drive 1.0 Evo used in the article goes for $1,400. The E40 2048 Wh battery costs $1,000. The side mount control is another $500. Maybe a bit more for cables, although some are included. Most electric motors marketed for diesel replacement are larger of course, but I did find Electric Yacht lists a 2.5 kW for about $5,000, everything accept battery included. Motor mount and shaft components extra, if you're not replacing an inboard. Moving up, the price of the 3kW Pod Drive 3.0 Evo, is $2,800. The same battery will work, but the recommended larger 4086 Wh E80 battery would be $2,300. That's a 6 hp equivalent.
The Evo does provide hydrogeneration at speeds above 4 kts. Not really significant until you get to around 6 kts. At 10 kts they cut back to protect the gear.
Quote from: kickingbug1 on January 11, 2022, 09:08:38 PM
what is this "winterizing" thing? lets see i run the carb dry on my johnson 2 stroke and put it on a stand in my garage. i guess if i want to use it at a moments notice i would have to put it on the boat, and hook up the gas tank. wow, that is a lot of work. long live the two stroke. i know this will get a rise out of some. let the fun begin
Well have certainly been pondering the electrics but my 1987, 4 horse, 2 stroke Suzuki just keeps on gettin it! It's winter now so mostly armchair sailing and pretend buying all sorts of stuff! Who knows...and for the record I do not own a Sun Cat. Got a 16/2 but similar in size and displacement.
Mercury's new 3.5hp electric:
https://plugboats.com/mercury-launches-avator-7-5e-electric-outboard-ces/ (https://plugboats.com/mercury-launches-avator-7-5e-electric-outboard-ces/)
Yeah, they first announced this at the Miami Boat Show last year. Not shipping yet.
I like the battery design, and 1 kWh is a good balance for capacity and handling in an integral-battery design. Battery capacity and input power similar to the Spirit Evo and Torqeedo 1103C. Run times should be similar as well, be nice to see some projections. I assume the motor is direct drive and brushless, I don't see that confirmed. Not sure if the transverse flux design is similar or different to other models.
There do appear to options for a remote throttle, not sure if the tiller can be detached. I looks like it can be tilted to clear the coaming if it does need to remain attached.
At 59 lbs. with the battery it is a bit heavier, that shouldn't be a problem on the SC.
https://samerwebapp01apncus01.azureedge.net/mmgw-env-b/filer_public/78/e0/78e0c464-243a-4ce9-9a3e-a83ade11fc59/8m0215413_avator_75e_brochure.pdf
New models are always a risk, but Mercury is behind it. Sleek, modern design, pricing will be interesting to see. I look forward to learning more about it.
Bruce, what's your best guess as a local for necessary HP equivalent for the river currents and winds/waves in the area. I'm 0.6 miles from the yacht club (via the river) and 3.0 miles total until the end of Rumstick. Gas would mean not worrying about tide direction, but electric has the quiet and ease of maintenance (+ easier remote hookups, and being able to go on electric only lakes). The fear would be not making headway into a current back up the river running home. Extra batteries are easier to add ($) than horsepower after the initial motor is bought. I suspect a Navy 3.0 (6hp) or Cruise (6hp) would be necessary, "guts" wise. It's not so much torque as power in a current. Those low bridges can really rush, and I'd want to blast under vs getting spun. Hoping the shoal keel will assist in tracking. On a lake or other calm water, I have no doubt on the 3-3.5hp (heck a trolling motor works), but I'm facing some pretty good pull out there.
I think you're right on track with your thinking. I don't have first hand experience on the Barrington and Warren Rivers that you would transit to get to Narragansett Bay. I have tried to find current observations for the Warren River, but all I can find readings from the Bay at the mouth of the Warren River, on Rumstick Shoal out of the flow of the river itself. Max currents there are about a kt, as would be expected.
https://charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/13224.shtml
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/noaacurrents/Predictions?id=ACT2196_1
This report from a Boston kayaking group mentions the significant current you observe.
http://www.bostonkayaker.com/cgi-bin/bkonekpage.cgi?pagekey=warren
There is a lot of small-boat commercial traffic in the area, as well as the Barrington Yacht Club you mention. I'd find some locals to talk to. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of currents around 3 kts. at max flood and ebb.
http://www.bostonkayaker.com/cgi-bin/bkonekpage.cgi?pagekey=warren
Electric motors produce a lot of torque at low rpm. As long as the motor was sized appropriately, there'd be no problem. I'll let others recommend what hp you might need on a SC, but I'm guessing that would be more in the 5-6 hp range for the current you could potentially face, maybe more. Obviously you'll be planning your trips with the current in mind.
The second issue is the range you can expect from your battery. You're looking at a 7 nm round trip to the mouth of the Warren River, plus a bit more to get out in the Bay. You won't be able to sail much if any in the Warren or Barrington Rivers, it's pretty tight. And then there are the bridges. The trick to range is to keep the speed down, but taking an hour to go the 3.5 nm may be frustrating. Throw in some extra consumption to fight a current and you need to make sure you have enough capacity. Best to have some extra too for light wind days when the wind can die.
We launch from Bullock Cove. No great tidal current, and about a nm to the Bay. Heading out I use about 50% power, for roughly 3.5 kts. When we raise sail we still have 85-90% battery capacity for any contingencies. We always have 50-75% remaining when we haul out. At full power we might get to 5 kts., most of that is wasted, hull speed is reached at about 65-70% power.
You may be able to go electric, but I wouldn't spend that money until I had the boat and some real first-hand experience. You're welcome to borrow my Honda 2 or Lehr 2.5 to test things out, as well as the Spirit if you wanted to try it.
I was afraid you'd say that :) Yeah, I think gas is the way to go for the foreseeable future. SC I've got a deposit on has a 5hp Honda, so that'll be my first piece of data. I suspect I'll wind up keeping that on the boat and getting a trolling motor for auxiliary use on electric only lakes (like the ones near my in-laws in Maine). I could do no maintenance to it, throw it away and buy another one, do nothing to that one, throw it away and buy another, maybe once more, for less than the necessary electric and batteries. Not that I would, but it helps to put it in perspective. I remember my father bought a used but mint condition Chevette for $700 when I was a kid, and his coworker had bought a $30k suv. He told me when they walked out to their cars after work, he pointed to the lot and said I could fill 42 parking spaces with my Chevettes to your one car. I could drive it until it broke, throw it away (not even sell it), and take another. And do that 41 more times, to his one car. I try to live similarly (though yeah, if I was loaded I'd be getting the biggest electric that I could fit on the thing, ha).
Quote from: Bub on January 12, 2022, 12:36:21 PM
Thanks Bruce. Pictures very helpful.
In looking at my Sunday Cat it looks like the remote could be mounted midship on the rear deck outside the cockpit. Then sped and direction could be controlled from helm on either side.
Any thoughts on that?
Here is a photo of a remote mounted on a SunCat (not ours) that I always thought looked handy