Marine Head

[Bristol14]

I'm considering adding a marine head to my 23-2. I'm debating the hauling my porta-potty to dump it vs. being able to use a pump-out facility, but I'm not convinced it's worth it.

The previous owner invested in valves and hoses for a marine head, but never installed one, so adding one should be fairly easy. Missing is the toilet and holding tank.

I'm interested in a simple gravity driven head that I saw on-line. The holding tank sits under the toilet. The problem is that due to the height, width and length, it won't fit in the v-berth.

How have other 23 owners installed marine heads or have you just stuck with a porta-potty?

Thx.

[brackish]

I hated the disgusting dump of the porta potty and was not enthused with the inconvenience of a holding tank either, so went an alternative route:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=7482.msg55191#msg55191

Obviously if you are a live aboard or do very long cruises it may or may not make sense, but for me it was a dream solution to a nasty problem.

And the admiral approves, something that is all important in matters of this type.

Keep in mind that the Wag Bags are approved for disposal in any dumpster or trash receptacle.

[Potcake boy]

Don't know if this will fit, but it is probably the most sensible solution for day sails and weekend trips, probably won't need emptying for the whole season:  http://www.c-head.com/  Would there be room for one of these under your companionway steps?
The biggest problem most sailors find with marine sanitation systems is the odor caused by anaerobic bacteria that thrive in oxygen-free environments and generate the gasses that smell so bad. If you complete the system you should consider including a tank ventilation system.
Also, consider the pump out. Is there one you can use easily, or will it be another boat chore in place of carrying the port-a-potti?
Don't forget about the holding tank capacity. Each flush will add water to the tank along with the waste so the tank will fill pretty quickly. A 5 gallon holding tank is usually good for a couple for 2-3 days. I just can't imagine anything more fun than carrying a container filled with 5 gallons of human waste, except when things go terribly wrong when attempting to empty that container in you home toilet.

P.S. a composting head won't require the through hulls of a conventional MSD, and can be un-installed as easily as a porta-potti. Venting is helpful but not required.

[Vipersdad]

I hated the disgusting dump of the porta potty and was not enthused with the inconvenience of a holding tank either, so went an alternative route:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=7482.msg55191#msg55191

Obviously if you are a live aboard or do very long cruises it may or may not make sense, but for me it was a dream solution to a nasty problem.

And the admiral approves, something that is all important in matters of this type.

Keep in mind that the Wag Bags are approved for disposal in any dumpster or trash receptacle.

I agree,  I have a PETT in my 19-II.  My Thetford is in the garage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caz0VPqNjeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lx_HxZpXRI

Vipersdad

[NateD]

Different strokes for different folks. I don't know why, but advocates for solutions other than traditional marine heads seem to be more vocal on forums. Or maybe they are just more into boating and looking for better solutions than your average sailor. In any case, I had a standard marine head on my 23, and I'm putting one on my 24 foot Dolphin as well. However, on my Com-Pac 16 I use wag bags (used to use porta-potty), so I'm not adverse to alternate waste handling systems...but I like the capacity of holding tanks and the fact I'm not sitting on a bucket.

Any way you do it, your hands are going to get dirty. Either installing/rebuilding/unclogging your marine head, or carrying the porta-potty to the restroom to empty it. Pick your poison. I've seen porta-pottys-with-pumpout options that seem like they would be small enough to fit under the v-berth in a 23, but I've never actually measured. For someone you just does weekends I think the porta-potty-with-pumpout is probably the best compromise. Fewer hoses, less likely to clog, can still pump it out.

[brackish]

I don't know why, but advocates for solutions other than traditional marine heads seem to be more vocal on forums

Man the answer to that is easy!  I've owned sailboats for 50 years.  I've had to rebuild standard marine heads a half dozen times. Nasty and expensive. I've dumped more porta-potty holding tanks than you can shake a stick at, breaking my back to carry in or out the supply or holding tanks crouched over in the heat.  I've dealt with the odor escape many, many times.  When something comes along that eliminates all of the problems above, you just have shout out with joy.

[HeaveToo]

There is one other alternative.  You could install a MSD Porta Potty.  That would have the vent and the deck pumpout.  It is a solution that I have considered. 

The biggest issue I see is installing the holding tank if you go with a traditional head.  You will have to remove the plywood in the V-berth to install the tank.  You also have to install a thru hull in the boat for the head.

I tend to favor the marine head in most applications.  Right now my porta-potty is working.  I don't let it get extra full before I empty it. 

[Potcake boy]

I used wag bags on my trimaran. The nice thing there was that I could store the bucket and used bags in the float compartment and didn't have any odor problem in the cabin (there is a slight odor emission). It also left more room inside an already small cabin for other stuff. I got a seat that fits a 3 or 5 gallon bucket, and found the best prices on bags at Walmart. You can also use plain old trash bags and peat moss. It is important to note that the key to these alternate systems is to separate the liquid waste from the solids. This is obviously more easily practiced by men than women for physical and social reasons. That's where the C-Head (there are other manufacturers as well) provides a store bought solution. I see that a couple of new solutions have been added to the C-Head line up. A new "shorty" that is the same height as your common compact marine toilet, and stir free models that use a trash bag. The trash bag thing with the shorty model seems a no brainer for daysailing and short trips. Just carry the bag home with the rest of the trash and dispose of in the household trash.
The fundamental principal here is the fact that when solid waste dries in an oxygen-rich environment, the aerobic bacteria break it down and render it odorless. Peat moss is commonly used in composting systems because it absorbs the moisture and provides enough oxygen for the aerobic bacteria to flourish. That is also the reason liquid waste is handled separately in these systems. When I used wag bags on my boat, I used a "Little John" (sorry that for some of you they don't make a "Big John") or the manly man means of treating liquids separately. There is, as many of you are probably aware, an adaptor for female use of the "Little John" so you can get your queen her own "Little Jill".

Simple fact is that a regular MSD is nothing more than component Port Potti which is stationary, and has many more complicated and expensive parts and requires extra holes in your boat's hull. Just because it has the appearance of your toilet at home doesn't mean it's service free.

For the environmentally conscience (hard to imagine a sailor not being) the composting head is a far better solution. You can empty the compost in an outside area (no odor) and in about 6 months it will be safe to use even as fertilizer for your garden. Now how can you beat that at less money and maintenance that a standard MSD?

[Shawn]

There is one other alternative.  You could install a MSD Porta Potty.  That would have the vent and the deck pumpout.  It is a solution that I have considered. 

The biggest issue I see is installing the holding tank if you go with a traditional head.  You will have to remove the plywood in the V-berth to install the tank.  You also have to install a thru hull in the boat for the head.

I tend to favor the marine head in most applications.  Right now my porta-potty is working.  I don't let it get extra full before I empty it. 

I'd seriously consider the PortaPoti with pump out. I had one on my 23 but never got around to installing the pumpout line. Even leaving it most of the season it never smelled due to being fresh water flush. On the flip side the holding tank in my Sabre can get nasty pretty quickly as it is salt water (and sea life) flushed.

Shawn

[brackish]

For the environmentally conscience (hard to imagine a sailor not being) the composting head is a far better solution. You can empty the compost in an outside area (no odor) and in about 6 months it will be safe to use even as fertilizer for your garden. Now how can you beat that at less money and maintenance that a standard MSD?

Be nice to have someone chime in who has had a composting head on their boat for a while.  I am interested in the concept not so much for my 23, cruising profile doesn't warrant it, but potentially for a larger, longer cruise boat.  I went to the Len Foote Hike Inn in northern Georgia a year ago and they had a line of toilet rooms that were all composting to the same system.  They used the compost for shrub and tree fertilizer but what was most impressive was the complete lack of odor anywhere in the facility.

[Potcake boy]

Vipersdad,

That PETT suitcase looks a lot like the one I used to carry to work, and mine had the same stuff in it!!!!!!!!   '-)

[Bob23]

  Shawn, same here. I will install the pumpout line sometime but my PP is under the bridge deck so I need to finagle the outside cap somewhere. Sad to say, I haven't sailed nearly as much as I should have this summer (many reasons, laziness not one of them) so I haven't needed the head all that much.

  Composting toilets seem to make the most sense. How much electricity do they use? Can a small solar array keep up?
Bob23

[Potcake boy]

Bob,
A composting head doesn't require electric. Ventilation is optional, just to avoid a musty smell from the moisture. It can be vented via a standard marine solar vent.

Composting is not new, actually, it goes back to the bears in the woods. Many unnecessary things we have on our boats are products of marketers and boat shows. Remember when you got your first boat and you felt like a kid in the candy store when went into a boat store. I even remember having my picture taken in Fawcett's in Annapolis. So anyway as we become old salts we begin to understand the beauty of the old ways. Before yachting came into vogue, sailing was a form of commercial transportation and they didn't need shiny stainless steel to get the job done. Remember when seamen were made of steel and ships of wood? So the blue blazer crowd gentrified yachting to such an extent that we became dependent on chandleries to provide us with proper yacht fittings, and you weren't likely to find a 5 gallon bucket in their yacht plumbing isle. I even remember some companies marketing a high-tech version of the 5 gallon bucket to use on our yachts.
Back to the basics boys. Why do you think so many commercial sailors carry "utility" buckets on board. They can be used for bailing, for tools when going aloft, for a deck washdown, and for a bathroom when there are no women aboard. In fact, I think it might be women that got us saddled with contemporary MSDs, because they resembled the comforts of home. Essentially a composting head is nothing more than a bucket with a couple of features that make it more convenient than a simple bucket. The peat moss initiates the composting process the same way as the bears in the woods. The new marine versions, not by coincidence, resemble  those familiar fixtures at home. The C-Head has the most utilitarian appearance of the top three makers, and is the most faithful to the KISS principle. Now with the expanded line of models, it's easy to find one that fits your needs. The fellow who designed and makes the C-Head has a long experience on the water and understands our needs, he's an old salt.

There is a lot of information on the web about MSDs (which are a micro representation of a city's sanitation system) and about composting. On a large scale like a utility company, composting is not an efficient means of treating that volume of waste water. On the other side of the coin, today's marine MSDs aren't an efficient way of treating small volumes of waste, they just accumulate it till we can transfer it to a bigger system. Too much equipment and too complicated. After all, we just want to go to the bathroom, we don't want to actually DO the bathroom.

I am in favor of composting heads because they do away with the odor, require infrequent emptying, are pretty much trouble free, are portable, and cost less. The most obvious benefit is that they are sanitary and allow the waste to go back to nature without polluting our water. Did anyone watch the news specials about the water in Rio De Janeiro for the Olimpic sailors? They were cautioned not to touch the water as it is so much sewage.

Better stop now, I think I am developing potty mouth.

P.S. Don't forget the extra weight you are carrying around in the holing tank.

[Jim23]

As a licensed master plumber, certified wastewater/water treatment operator, and utility district manager, I can honestly say s**t is my destiny. If someone would have told me that when I was 18 I would have ran the other way but here I am.

A large part of my decision to buy a CP23 rather than a 19 was to have a working marine head. The primary driver for that criteria is that 90% of the time I'm sailing with my wife and 2 daughters. The  marine head has certainly improved my family member's motivation to sail. I replaced the original head rather than rebuild and I've had little or no problems since. Our climate is fairly dry so odors are easily controlled with a new container of damp-rid each season. I place it right on top of the holding tank.

If I primarily sailed by myself or with buddies I would definitely opt for a composting head or even a bucket! This is by far the simplest and most environmentally friendly system. The amount of energy it takes to store, pump, transfer, treat, and dispose of waste is ridiculous.

[Bristol14]

Interesting comments...will have to research composting toilets, costs, size, where I'd put it.

For those with marine heads, did you install in the v-berth?

Thx.