Newbie dumb question #1 : wet bilge

[Jackrabbit]

So, I finally got around to surveying my prize more closely.   She is a 2001 model C19 (Hull # 620). First thing I noted is the manner in which much of the bilge is inaccessible because it is covered by the cabin sole (with no obvious way to lift it up) and the portion under the vee berth is covered with a combination of foam and some sort of loose fill insulation material (which seems odd to me - can't imagine what this stuff is doing there, other than to hold moisture against the mast compression post support bulkhead and eventually cause rot).  The aft portion of the bilge is accessible, and I was surprised to find about an inch of water there (which I assume may have entered through the companionway).  When I reached down to suck it up with the shopvac I noticed the plastic coating (i.e., covering the top of the concrete) is coming apart in crumbly chunks.  Looks like all the manufacturer did was pour unthickened resin on top of the concrete (i.,e., no glass cloth), which is why the stuff is brittle and fracturing (probably from from freeze-thaw cycles of trapped water during winter storage).  Has anyone else experienced this with their C19?  I reckon the fix here is to thoroughly dry and apply several layers of cloth/epoxy to make a stable covering to seal this portion of the concrete ballast.

Another concern I have is using the anchor chain locker in its present configuration.  We all know that anchor rodes come in dripping wet, and in most boats of typical construction, the water drips along the bottom of the hull and harmlessly finds its way to the bilge.  My concern is that, from what I can make out peering through the tiny inspection holes on the berth platform, there does not appear to be a clear path to the bilge.  Rather, it looks like any water from the anchor locker will get absorbed into the foam/insulation mess on the bottom, where it will eventually rot out the compression post bulkhead against which it is packed.    Is this impression correct, or am I missing some unseen provision to drain the anchor locker into the bilge without the possibility of it collecting in a vulnerable corner?  What have other owners done to rectify any problem in this area, and how do they use the anchor chain locker?  Or do they use it at all in light of this putative vulnerability?

Any tips or advice will be much appreciated.

Burton Blais
S.V. Restless

[Tim Gardner]

Hey Burton,

My '85 19/II has no crumbled foam beneath the vee berth. There is foam there but it is a one piece monolithic slab.

The bilge in the aft section of the keel had peeling paint, so I wire brushed the loose material off ( nearly all of it came off)
I then epoxy painted it.
I always dry my anchor rode on deck before storing it in the forward compartment the prevent the moisture from draining off in the locker.
There are openings in the vee berth bulkhead to allow water to drain,and the compression post does not reach the hull to help prevent wicking water into the post.

If I were you, I'd remove the"fill", clean the keel bilge and monitor it for  water ingress, find where it is leaking in from and fix it.

You'll love the boat, sails upright to reduce the Admiral's number of screams.

[Lafayette Bruce]

Burton
Welcome to CP19 ownership and solving the mysteries of boating.  The anchor locker does not drain to the bilge.  I agree with Tim, just leave the rode on deck for as little as an hour and most of the water will drip off or partially dry and then you can stuff it back down the hole.  It is normally not tightly packed within the locker so air can still get to it to dry.
There seems to be something going on with the water in your bilge.  Obviously the first step is to get the existing water out of there.  If your boat is stored on the trailer, store it with the tongue of the trailer up high so as the water seeps out of the concrete in the bilge it will run to the back of the bilge and away from the concrete.  Shop vac or sponge out as needed.  The plastic coating is likely put there by the factory to keep the dust down and/or to make a minimal attempt to keep water out of the concrete.  Get the worst of it off and put on a couple coats of epoxy to replace it.
I would recommend you start looking for where the water is coming in.  My guess is rain water is the source but it could be lake water.  Crawling around the cabin with a good flashlight and looking for witness marks of water would be a good start.  Specifically check all along the deck/hull joint, at the chain plates, top of the compression post, and cockpit drains (a real pain to get to, but have been known to leak).  I saw you have a centerboard version so I would get to the hinge pin and line/cable that controls the centerboard and make sure the water is not coming from those.
Lafayette Bruce

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks very much.  The boat is on her trailer, uncovered, so it is definitely rain water coming in.   I did notice a bit of dampness at the top of the compression post when we had rain a few days back (though it wasn't exactly dripping), so I guess I need to remove the mast step and rebed in Sikaflex.

[Jackrabbit]

So I had another look this morning, and from what I can see, the ballast is concentrated around the midship portion of the keel, with the  bilge "sump" residing in the aft portion, being devoid of concrete, and the bottom surface of which is the inside face of the fiberglass keel (which is covered with a layer of brittle, crumbly plastic resin - probably polyester?).  The CB case is located forward of the sump, and appears to be embedded in the ballast.  The cabin sole appears to be the top of the ballast, and is covered with adhered carpeting, but from what I can tell there is no plywood substrate there - the sole is essentially just the top surface of the concrete ballast, to which the carpeting is glued.  Is this impression correct?

[Salty19]

Hi Jackrabbit-

Nice CP19.  We have your boats slightly older sister, hull # 603.  She's a beauty as well.

The bilge is just the area under the companionway, under the removable piece of wood covered with carpet. Everything under the main carpet area is the concrete fill for the keel.

Ours does not have a centerboard, but the forward, vertical  portion of the keel is plywood, or so it appears.

The advice about the anchor rode is spot on.  Leave it on deck to dry for a few hours. Or, you could locate a bucket just the right size to hold the rode in the anchor locker, dripping into the bucket only. The problem with that is the bucket will harvest mold as ventilation isn't that good in this area. Water will NOT drip to the bilge from the anchor locker.

The foam you described is not factory, or at least not the way CP19's have historically been built.  There should be a large amount of foam in one "blob" located under the v-berth, but the aft edge of the foam ends around 10-12" forward of the compression post and bulkhead.  There should be enough room between the foam and the bulkhead for a battery, toolbox, etc.  I vote to cut it out there, leaving only the large blob.   Are there two different types of foam?  maybe the prior owner modified it for some reason?

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks for the info, Salty.  I may remove the foam entirely to make a proper storage space under the vee berth.  Doubt this stuff would keep the bot afloat anyway - probably just put in there by bureaucratic edict.

Can't wait to get her launched.  Must say, though, she seems to sit so high on her trailer I'm having a bit of launch ramp anxiety....

[Salty19]

My understanding is the foam isn't there for floatation, there are no requirements for sailboats this size to float.  She would sink if you filled the cabin with water.

Rather the foam provides some support when using a sling lift and it deadens the sound when pounding hard into waves. I was considering removing it as well for the same purpose, perhaps reinforcing in some other manner. I was considering building a battery box and  DIY 12V air conditioner (fan blowing on ice and out vents into cabin) box. There is tons of room down there for little supplies too.

A depth sounder would work best under there as well. 

Not to give you any more projects!!

[Jackrabbit]

My understanding is the foam isn't there for floatation, there are no requirements for sailboats this size to float.  She would sink if you filled the cabin with water.

Rather the foam provides some support when using a sling lift and it deadens the sound when pounding hard into waves. I was considering removing it as well for the same purpose, perhaps reinforcing in some other manner. I was considering building a battery box and  DIY 12V air conditioner (fan blowing on ice and out vents into cabin) box. There is tons of room down there for little supplies too.

A depth sounder would work best under there as well. 

Not to give you any more projects!!

Ah, but that's the wonderful thing about boat ownership - gives one a platform to do projects!

Can't wait until I'm retired and can give it my full attention...

[Craig Weis]

... "She is a 2001 model C19 (Hull # 620)" ??

Comfort and Joy is Hull number 588, but didn't see water till August,  2001 She has S/N ABV00588B696, and therefore was manufactured Feb. 6, 1996

Early models did not have a bow sprit, but were fitted with teak trim around cabin on the inside. The XL means that a molded fiberglass insert was fitted on the inside of cabin. Giving the cabin a 'brighter' white look. Plus the ports stick out further in the XL's because these ports don't sit in the wood thickness. But anyway.

... "bilge is inaccessible" Only access is by lifting the factory carpeted piece of the sole under the stair where the port-a-0 potty goes.

... "portion under the vee berth is covered with a combination of foam and some sort of loose fill" The foam is a sprayed on expanding type from the factory and it only there to quiet the hull when beating [booming] into the waves. The foam is a closed foam [not open] and cannot absorb water.
Loose fill? I have no idea. I should add that I made a 16" x 16" hatch [similar to the two factory hatches] in front of the compression post where I store extra PFD's, blankets, and sleeping bag. Additionally two, two inch holes house the Rayathon ST-40 through the hull instruments that are located 6 inch in front and six inches off the center-line of the keel. I had to use my grinder to make a clean edge and back up the foam to locate the instruments.











... "coming apart in crumbly chunks" My concrete is solid and not coated with anything. And it's dry. The factory never coated the cement. Leave it unsealed to facilitate evaporation.

..."Chain locker wetted with wet anchor rode" Anchoring out a lot in fresh water, 100 foot, it all drys. No problem.

..."bilge "sump" residing in the aft portion, being devoid of concrete" As fully intended by factory. Below the water shape and the ship's balance are two different things. Don't upcuff the marine architect's calculated design. And keep the bilge free of loose paint so as nothing is drawn into the pump [if you sail with a pump]. I store my ice and adult beverages in this location under the potty and later pump the melt out.









..."Tabernacle leaks" Not mine but some tabernacles have wood screws that sit in rotting 'wood hard points' factory glassed into the cabin's top. When raising the mast on my buddies CP-19 the tabernacle let go. We just bought some epoxy, filled the void, drilled clean through the top and BOLTED the tabernacle down. An hour later we raised the mast and went sailing. And that was five or six years ago. No leaks, no problem, no concern. One of the four ss. 1/4-twenty bolts went though the overhead light. West Marine sells a really neat cabin light, that switches from white, or red. And every lamp on my boat is an LED.





..."Doubt this stuff would keep the bot afloat" Correct. Even fully filled with foam, the boat will sink. And it was never legally required to remain afloat when flooded.

Let me comment that the hull's shape of the CP-19 sails fastest when standing straight up.

craig. fotos may be seen in the photobucket or on my fb page. Can't figure out how to post'em here. The old way works. 'craig weis'

[Craig Weis]

A very nice modification to the back of the boom is to fit a block like this to replace the side by side block that twists up the main sheet.



This is the factory setup for the main sheet. I re bent the shape a little bit and ran a line through the pulley and up to the stern pulpit because main sheet gets pinched between the pulley and that welded round rod on the base.




This two hundred and ten foot aluminum yacht going to Russia is totally 'bondo'ed' with ALGRIP and sanded to a fair shape by a second shift crew, and primed and painted for several millions of dollars. PJY has since closed in America and moved to Norway, but thanks to the owner,  Timmor Mohammad for the years of employment for 500+ boat builders in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin. We built two of these monsters but all our hulls are BUILT BEYOND PERFECTION. It all trickles down. http://www.palmerjohnson.com/ .
Finantari, [BayShip Builders] is the World's largest ship builder and has purchased the Palmer Johnson buildings. That's a good thing.



I can't find a line chalk in brass or bronze with the same bolt pattern that's on the boat already . [note that they are both for the same side of the boat].

Note the anchor shank is drilled and pinned to the head stay tac and the anchor rests on the anchor roller. The coated chain holds it's shape and is worth it's weight in gold to stay put on a rolling deck. I tigged up that little Sampson post out of scrap aluminium-bronze fuel oil line. I like it, very nautical me thinks. Same bolt pattern and fasteners as the factory cleat.





Craig Weis.

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks for all the great advice guys!  Lots of projects to look forward to.   Amalia and I are off for our first short (2-3 days) cruise in the Thousand Islands (St. Lawrence River) tomorrow, so we'll get a real shakedown on her performance, sleep aboard capability and so on.  I've only had her out one day so far, and was very favorably impressed with her performance - she really does behave every bit like a bigger keel boat, comfortable, rock solid both under sail and when walking about her decks,  and seems to perform well on all points.  I'll try to get a handle on tacking angles with and without the cb down to see what the difference is.

Burton
S.V. Restless

[Jackrabbit]

"...some tabernacles have wood screws that sit in rotting 'wood hard points' factory glassed into the cabin's top..."

Yes, I noticed that issue on mine - first time I raised the mast the ss step torqued alarmingly, and I was astonished to see that it was only fastened with no. 8 wood screws set in a wood laminate, which is waterlogged (an inevitable consequence of such a poor assembly).   The step itself seems very thin for the intended purpose.  Very surprised to see a reputable builder make such a flimsy arrangement for a critical component, especially in one of the last production boats of her type to come off the line (I would have thought that by the time she was put together every historical issue would have been rectified).  I did re-bed and through-bolt the step to get on with my season, but will definitely have to open up the laminate and either fill with thickened epoxy or a new wood filler.  I'll go over the entire boat this coming winter and check for other weaknesses (or may discover some in use this summer).

I was also surprised to find a lot of flex in the fiberglass at the aft section of the hull (where the boat sits on the aft portion of the trailer bunk), and in fact, the hull has a slight upward deflection there (i.e., "oil canning").    Hope this isn't a serious structural issue, but I will have to reinforce the area by laminating foam gussets on the inside of the hull skin through the lockers.

[wes]

The force of the mast is carried by the compression post inside the cabin, not by the deck around the tabernacle, nor by the screws. The factory used wood screws there for a very good reason - if the rigging fails and the mast falls, the screws will pull out, leaving holes that are easily repaired. If you replace with through-bolts, a dismasting will tear out a football-sized hunk of deck and you'll have a much bigger repair job. Recommend you not make such an "improvement ."

Wes

[Jackrabbit]

Good point.  Notwithstanding,it is very difficult to assure that there will be no torque during the mast raising operation (which is a frequent occurrence for a trailer sailor like me) as its hard to keep the mast perfectly centered throughout the procedure; hence, the mast step will always be subjected to torque, pulling on the screws, loosening the screw holes and compromising the bedding compound, leading to leaks etc..  I guess its a risk management situation (i.e., do whatever you're gonna do and hope for the best).  Anyhow, good to know there is a rationale for why it was done this way.