Fast

[rbh1515]

I am continually amazed at how fast the HDC is.  The boat is usually faster or as fast as most boats its size.  Today we were out in 8-10 knot winds.  At the end of the day we were on a broad reach going back to the harbor.  There was a Tartan 28 with a main and jenny just behind us.  We pulled away!  I kept looking back, since I couldn't believe it.
Rob

[Craig]

The secret is out! Cats can be fast! Another old wives tale bites the dust. With decent wind and on a reach a well designed cat can be very fast. With The HC & HDC I think it is the Herreschoff lineage. With a little heel the hull form becomes much narrower and easier to drive. A friend has a Marshall Sanderling which is also very fast. When you think about the design requirements of the original working cats....stability & easy short-handed handling for fishing it also becomes clear that good speed would be an advantage since getting the catch to market quickly translates into freshness and $$. The old timers got it right. No fools they!

[Vectordirector]

Indeed.  The new guys are constantly trying to "reinvent the wheel" with often questionable results. The are many reasons the cat still is in production among various manufacturers.  The design has been in use hundreds of years, particularly in New England.  It just works. 

Arthur traded his Corsair for a 1981 Cape Dory 22.  Classic Alberg design used by many manufacturers.  It is amazing now much stiffer it is than the Eclipse.  It is nowhere near as easy to sail and the outboard is hard to get to, but man, she takes a set and gusts don't bother her at all.  I guess it is the difference between a trailer sailor and a classic keel boat.  She weighs around 3200 lbs and can be trailered legally, but I wouldn't do it.  Great little stable pocket cruiser for a couple though.  Thing is, either of them can handle more than I can.  I guess that's good.

Craig, have you ever sailed against an Eclipse?  I wonder which is faster.  Horizon Cat looks about 300 lbs heavier and equal sail area and waterline.  Do you think the diesel is heavier overall than an outboard would be?  Does it really matter?   Should be close and would probably come down do who's a better sailor.  I expect you'd clean my clock as I'm still learning the boat.  I've never sailed a cat, I've heard it is "different", but I'm sure they get up and go on a reach with that big sail.  Sure are pretty too.  Was over at Laishley the other day getting some ice cream and walked out on the dock.  Your boat was sitting niceley waiting for action. 

They tell me better sailing weather is coming.  I'm ready.

Fair winds,

Bryan aka

Vectordirector

[rbh1515]

Bryan,
No Eclipses around our harbor.  I would guess they would be close in speed.  I know my HDC is faster than a CP19....flew by one earlier this summer.  I don't think they have a centerboard.
The displacement on my HDC is listed as the same as a HC.  Can't be right unless they add ballast to the HDC, which I doubt?
I think there is a big difference in outboard vs inboard.  First is the weight of the inboard.  Second, unless you have a folding or feathering prop on your inboard, there is a lot of drag from the prop.
Rob

[cdflan]

Agree on speed.  But at the same time, there is nothing that beats the feeling of sailing a beautifully designed sloop.  Had a chance this summer to sail a boat I owned some 50 years ago that was designed and built by Starling Burgess in 1907.  Gaff rigged, club footed jib saill plan, 31 LOA, 21 1//2 LWL.  She just knifes through the water, cuts through the swells and is so easy on the tiller - a beautiful esperience (although I still love my HC).

[blighhigh]

How fast is fast in a Horizon cat? Did you measure it with GPS or in hull transducer?

[Craig]

Hi Guys. Bryan I would suspect the Eclipse would have an overall advantage vs the HC. The diesel is heavier but that is compensated for somewhat in that the weight is down low(ballast) and more amidships. On a reach with a fair breeze the HC might have the advantage.Close hauled, the Eclipse would probably do better. I am also ready for better conditions....Less heat ,more wind! Rob I am not sure about the ballast thing. Seems odd to list same displacement unless there is more ballast. If pressed for an answer I would say that there is added ballast for stability and to keep the boat "on her lines" Only Compac knows for sure! Actually the prop is not as big of a drag factor as one might think. It is a two blade prop which sits vertically behind the keel deadwood which is an area of turbulence anyway. A folding prop would be better but they give away some thrust in reverse so the fixed prop is a good compromise(for me at least). Bryan, I'll be looking for you on the water soon! Rob, really glad you love your HDC!

[Joseph]

I suspect the Horizon to perform not much differently than the SunCat, If  this suspicion is correct the secret of this surge in speed is in the "broad reach" point of sail. I have cruised in the Great Lakes together with sloops of similar LWL and they have been always faster than the SC, except when broad-reaching or running. With the wind from the astern Sassy could leave a few sloops sailing in her wake...

Only once I got the SunCat planing "in the grove" in a close-reach point of sail. It was extremely exhilarating and I will never forget it. It was a few years ago in Colpoy's Bay in Georgian Bay off the east cost of the Bruce Peninsula. There, as the afternoon breeze picked up, for several minutes Sassy's hull planed skimming the waves at close to 8 knots (according to GPS - way above her hull speed), heeling steadily with the railing a few inches above water level. However, this was an experience that in subsequent years I have been unable to repeat.

Cheers!

J.

[frank]

In 2005 I joined a Montgomery owners group for a week sailing on Chesapeake Bay with my Suncat.
Our very 1st leg after launch was a broad reach to a run. I was about 4 or 5 boats back out of 10 boats.
"hot tub" literally sailed past them all. I turned...sailed back through and past them again. It was fun
to watch them poling out their jibs or genny's and lifting outboards to try and make speed.

Now....this was a "perfect" gaff rig-cat boat day. About a 6-7 knot wind on the stern and between the
main and gaff boom...allowed full sail to stay out to the wind....no flopping around like the sloop's sails...

Yet....they can surprise folks at times  :-)

[rbh1515]

How fast is fast in a Horizon cat? Did you measure it with GPS or in hull transducer?

8-10 knots of wind, with GPS showing 4 to 5 knots speed on the broad reach!
Rob

[Craig]

Gotta love the "obsolete" gaff rig! That which is old is not necessarily less effective.

[rbh1515]

Not sure how much difference a folding or feathering prop would make in a HC.  Folding props are a bit more problematic.  To get the full effect, after stopping the engine you may need to manually rotate the prop if one blade is up and one is down...you want them in the 3 and 6 o'clock positions.  I like feathering props the best.  My Catalina 28 had a 2 blade Max-prop.  A few times I would forget to feather the prop.  As soon as I would feather it (by shifting into reverse) I would gain 1/2knot: not insignificant!  Also, the Max-prop was great in reverse...better than a fixed prop.
Rob

[Salty19]

I think the captain is just as important a factor in discussing speed of boats than the actual design itself, albeit there is inherent advantages one boat has over another

Results of the CLR race tells the story as to what boat was in X position by the end of the race but doesn't necessarily tell what boat is quickest.

Over a course of about 5 miles that consisted of going around several (4) marks using most directions of sail, winds ranging from 7-13 or so, with some long lasting gusts beyond 15mph (appx guess) here is what happened. Kicknbug our fearless race organizer did a good job with spacing out our boats according to PHRF ratings.  The horizon cat started with the 16's and Suncats and the 19's/Catalina 22 started several minutes back.

Rich, a very good sailor with crazycarl and his admiral Joanie on board as rail meat on a Catalina 22 MKII with CB, placed first roughly 45 seconds over the course.  I think he was flying a 135 headsail. I don't think he made any mistakes or if so just minor errors.

We took second on a CP19 running a 170% drifter most of the race.  We were in the lead despite starting later than smaller boats well before the firs mark in lighter winds.  Until I had trouble trimming that big sail in the stronger winds and had to take it down and deploy the furled 140%--as well as not judging a tack well enough and having to do so twice to make the mark, we were in first.  As the Catalina was very slowly gaining ground and I made two mistakes.  Rich passed us right at the 3rd of 4th marks-about 2/3 into the race.  On the final downwind run I put the drifter back up.  Not to trim my own jib, but I think of myself as a good sailor, but perhaps not as good as Rich.  We won the 2012 race beating a CP23, 3 other 19's, an Eclipse and blew away all the CP16's by over half and hour without the drifter and generally speaking can outsail other boats in this size/class.

Third place was Roger in his standard sail rig, traveler controlled Suncat and was only maybe 30 second behind our CP19.  Bob23 was with him and reported to me during the party that evening Roger trims his sail one-half of inch at a time.  Roger came in second in last years CLR race and is a very good sailor.

Fourth was the Horizon Cat, Bob and Linda.  Standard rig.  I had never sailed with Bob before so I didn't know what his skills were before the race, but it sure looked like he knew what he was doing during the whole event.  The Horizon Cat was, oh, about 45 seconds behind the Suncat, beating 2 more Suncats, a CP19 and two (or three??) CP16's.

So about 2 minutes separated First from Fourth over the course of a 5 mile, multiple tack and angle of attack race with 4 good sailors at the helm.  If Rich and Roger were not really good sailors, and I wasn't flying a big headsail, the Horizon Cat would probably finished well within seconds of first.  At that point, if the situation was a little different, it would have been anyone's race.

It will be interesting to hear about other such comparisons as more Horizon Cats are built and compared-dare I say raced, in similar fashions at future events like CLR.  I don't doubt one moment the Horizon Cats with a better captain then the next guy can beat other boats near it's class/size given.

I think it's a myth that Com-pacs are slow.  Some are, but most are surely not.

[kickingbug1]

unless we have mike and brenda as crew next year.  we might just get in on the race.  as long as we can get to the start quick enough.  we will see what we will see----i think the gauntlet has been thrown down-----hear that tudors hahah

[CaptRon28]

With the handicap of no knot or wind meters on my diesel powered HC, I believe that the boat has gone about 6 knots on a reach in about 12 to 15 knots of wind. Several times in a closed reservoir (very little water coming in or out) with absolutely no current I've gotten the gps to register about 6 knots over land. And I don't remember ever been passed by any cruising type sloop (or other cat) in the 20 - 25  foot length range.

I think this boat sails better than most cats. The full keel with fold down stainless centerboard and a decent shaped foil rudder is the main difference. The others tend to have no board and use a classic barn door rudder to help control leeway, but it also acts as a barn door in the water - scrubbing off some speed. It also points somewhat better than it should, assuming that one learns how to make a cat sail into the wind. It is NOT a sloop and will not respond like one. The boom should never be anywhere near the centerline of the boat, even when close-hauled.