Pilot house conversion/mini-trawler conversion...thoughts/ideas

[mayrel]

Keith at the Sailboat Co. Richlands NC has converted several sailboats to mini-trawlers(CP16 and 23).  The idea is for those considering giving up sailing but don't want to spend the money for a different boat, rather opt to modify what they have.  From what I can find out, this isn't a new idea, and many sailboats have been converted successfully.  My thought was to add a detachable pilot house without having to modify the basic boat.  Adding a pilot house with standing head room with a cockpit cover/top covering about half the cockpit area.  To attach this pilot house, you could use the mast step, but you would need to thru-bolt on the cabin top, and depending on the materials used for fabrication, upright support poles might be necessary.  You would remove the mast and standing rigging.  Again from talking to other folks, you would also need to add some ballast.  Again, using smaller poured concrete ballast pieces, there might be room over the existing keel/concrete ballast, and you could epoxy in supporting framing to keep the ballast from shifting.  I think you would need approximately 4 to 6 individual sections/pieces. Length, width and height measurements  would be required to measure their weight/dimensions.  Again the idea being you could return the boat to it's original setup quite easily.  I would think the weight of the additional ballast would equal and/or be more than the weight of the pilot house addition.
Any comments....I know, there will be somebody say, sell the boat and buy a power boat...or....

[Tom L.]

Don't the fabricators of these changes cut away part of the original cabin top. Seems it would be necessary to have standing room in the cabin.  How about this, make it a sailing trawler with a cat boat rig. Mast stub up front and a boom gallows aft. It would be a little top heavy so more ballast is needed.

For ballast I would use lead ingots, shot, wheel weights or whatever you can get. Keeps the weight dense and low. Of all the things Com Pac does the concrete ballast is not good in my opinion. In fact if I was doing that mod I might remove all the concrete. I don't really know how difficult that would be. Just thinking out loud.

Tom L.

[Tom L.]

BTW, I trailer sail a Sun Cat. You can't believe how quick and easy the mast is set and the boat in the water from the trailer. So that is the reason I would suggest to set a trawler conversion with a gaff rigged sail. This allows a small boat sailor to crusie many areas within driving distance.

Of all the things Com Pac has invented or refined the mast tender is really good.

Tom L.

[mikew]

I have been thinking the same for my Cp-16, here are my thoughts:
Add a removable pilothouse so the boat could be sold or sailed again- there are commercial trawlers that seem to have a pilothouse  over the cabin top with a sliding companionway hatch. So build a lightweight house from marine ply, epoxy, maybe fiberglass cloth on the outside and lexan windows. Design it to it fit on top of the cabin just behind the mast step, the front lower edge would have a gasket for the sliding hatch.
The house could extend aft of the present cabin top for more side weather protection, and attach with a minimum of holes ,maybe 4 small right angle brackets to the cabin top. Another similar design like yours could be more of a lobster boat house. A smaller front windshield area ( ply- lexan) , a slightly arched longer house roof, open at the sides but attached at the rear with vertical supports. The open sides could be weather proofed with removable canvas/ vinyl window panels.
My Compac motors well with the rudder to steer and outboard on the side, so for a remote helm - build up a small fiberglass box to contain a outboard type steering wheel with pushpull cable. The box/ wheel could bolt on the right rear cabin bulkhead with the steering cable led back and attached to the tiller end with quick- disconnect.  A remote outboard throttle/shift could be mounted along side the helm also.
I don't think you would need extra ballast, you are loosing the weight of the mast,boom,rigging and sails- your Cp-19 has a flatter bottom than the 16/23 - try it first as is. I am getting older now, motoring  with a pilothouse would be more comfortable without selling the boat and I would like to try the canals and rivers near my house.
Mike      
 

[mayrel]

Hey Mike, we're thinking along the same lines.  I've been told removing the mast will require additional ballast. The mast and rigging isn't that heavy but it offers a counter balance effect, like a pendulum.  Placement of additional ballast would be relative simple.  Placing the additional ballast directly over the existing keel would be from the indentation of the Vberth at the mast compression post aft. I'm not sure how much more ballast would be needed, but I would guess at least 300 pounds.  Using lead shot mixed in epoxy and poured into molds would allow you to install them in the boat semi-permanently after they cured.  Exact dimensions would take some time, as would making up cardboard mockups to fit.  Possibly the width of the existing area from the indented section of the Vberth aft terminating directly over the existing ballast/keel.  Raising the floor in this area wouldn't be a major issue(say 2.5 to 3 inches).
Headroom in the cabin would remain the same, leaving the existing hatch and drop boards as is.  Instead of a fixed pilot house, I was thinking of a fixed windshield with opening windows(lexan or glass) with a folding canvas top slightly higher if needed which would cover about 1/2 of the cockpit area.  Or a folding dodger. Three side panels could be zipped to the top and fastened to the coaming with snaps forming a complete cockpit enclosure when anchored/tied up to a dock.  The existing motor and tiller/rudder would remain as is.  I have a 6hp pro-sail Tohatsu which pushes our CP19 at about 5mph at 1/4 throttle very nicely in moderate conditions.  I am working on fitting a MarineTech auxiliary steering kit which will link the tiller/rudder to the motor so they turn together(sold a West Marine).  With half the cockpit open for full standing headroom you have flexibility when docking and looking around; you could also use this area when showering in the cockpit, cooking on a Magna grill of the stern pulpit. As you mentioned, there would be a minimum number of mounting holes, you haven't cut any of the existing structure, the mast step remains in place.  All you've removed is the standing rigging, boom and mast.  If I did this, I would first test the handling without the sailing rig to see if there was excessive rolling.  I would then use gallon jugs of water to add ballast midships as described above to determine how much additional ballast would be needed.  Currently the boat rolls quite a bit in swells 3-4 feet high, even cutting at an angle on a run or a broad reach/beat. I think you'd have the same result in a planning power boat, maybe not quite as much, depending on speed.  I don't think it's possible to address every aspect of handling without some experimentation.  I know the last time out, we were tired of the rough ride attempting to beat into a 17-18mph wind and 3-4 foot seas.  I furled all the sails and motored back in; about 3.5 miles with the wind and waves about 10 degrees off the port bow. We got some spray occasionally, it was still a rough ride, but we were making 4.5-5mph with the throttle about about 1/3.  When we turned into our marina channel, we had the seas to our stern; dancing on the rudder/tiller we rolled in.  I certainly wouldn't want to do this for long periods of time, but it was manageable.  I don't want to cut this boat up or drill too many holes in her either.  I intend to do some measuring to see how much head room we'd need in the cockpit to be livable.  I'm 6'1" so I don't expect to have full headroom.  5' would work nicely, but this might be a bit too high.  However, if the windshield/dodger were two feet high, the connecting cockpit cover/top could be made higher.  We have to have enough headroom to enter/exit the cabin through the existing companionway.  I emailed Keith at the Sailboat Co. in Richlands NC; no response.  There is nothing about how the CP23 pilothouse he was working on turned out.  He may have found things just didn't work that well?  I know he was getting close to retirement. 

[mikew]

Ok, I understand about adding ballast to compensate for the loss of the "Mast Effect". I guess it depends where you are going to motor as well.
Flatter water like  a river or canal would need less ballast. Also don't forget that Compac's trailers seem somewhat marginal so trailering weight is important. I like your idea of a modified dodger- less work to build than a formal pilothouse. I don't like the look of traditional dodgers though, they have a " bugeye " curved front windshield look. So maybe a rigid front windshield, simple with angle aluminum or 1x2" epoxied wood and lexan windows matched up to a large canvas bimini top and side curtains as needed.
I have sent Keith some questions about trawlers and got answers back. Are you posting them in the question section on the left side of his web page ? Curious why you are considering the " trawler " mode - I am considering it because I am getting older and motoring at displacement speeds is just fine with more of a shelter sounds like a good idea- plus I want to try new local waters on rivers and canals. I do over night on the boat as well, but I'd still like to do this on my favorite Compac boat.
Here is some links from Duckworks magazine on terminal trawlers you may enjoy:  
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/millionaire/index.htm
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/howto/terminal/
Mike    

[mayrel]

Hello Mikew, we're looking down the road, which by the way seems to be getting shorter all the time!  After researching various desirable power boats(C-dory 19, Grady White and Proline 20 cuddy cabins), the cost for a used version is high, plus the cost of fuel to operate.  Like you, we're not so interested in speed, 5-7mph is fine.  So the CP19 with some reasonable modifications seems a logical choice both financially and functionally.  I like the idea of a windshield, fixed on three sides, with a cockpit cover/bimini attached.  If you wanted to enclose the cockpit, it would be easy to add side curtains.  Taking this idea a bit further, instead of the canvas cockpit cover, it might be feasible to make the windshield with a hard top.  You'd have to add a couple of upright supports(aluminum tubing).  The only issue here is deciding how much cover would be practical; once it's built and installed, it's fixed.  Likely the more practical approach is fixed windshield and canvas on frame cover with the potential for side curtains.
As to ballast to offset the loss of the mast/rigging, the major question is how much more ballast?  And you're correct, what conditions will the boat be faced with?  We have the Choctawhatchee bay as well as the ICW running east to Panama City/Andrews Bay, and west to Pensacola/Mobile and their bays. We face winds and seas which can get pretty rough in the bays, although the ICW is much calmer.  Being retired, we can select our weather windows, so this isn't a major concern.  We also don't trailer our boat; I sold the trailer as it was 20 years old and storing it at $50 a month didn't make much sense(no pun intended).  Plus we don't have a tow vehicle that will handle the weight(Subaru Forester).  Adding ballast is more about achieving the proper balance/stability vice trailering weight.  Obviously lead is better than concrete, maybe lead and epoxy is even better?  We could add ballast over the existing keel/floor from the compression post aft.  I just don't know how to determine the weight???  My objective is to avoid any major modifications to the hull/structure so it could be returned to it's original sailing design. Of course, I have no idea what I will do with the rigging and sails.  Probably try and sell them if I like how the boat turns out.  Once we convert her to a mini-trawler, we won't be converting her back to sail.  I'll check out Keiths site for possible answers to the ballast question...

[mayrel]

I checked Keiths site; nothing on the CP19 or details about ballast for his other conversions.  I think the best approach might be to try and get in touch with the designer, it's worth a try.

[Tom L.]

Trawlers are often fitted with steadying sails. A sailboat motoring in waves will roll, just the bare pole helps to reduce this some. All boats roll in conditions with waves. Sailors have an advantage that the sail makes the boat more steady. It may heel but will be more steady. Heavily ballasted sailboats will snap roll. Ballasting may not be the answer. Think about a stay sail, you have all the hardware to mount a short mast.

[brackish]

Think you guys are all wrong with the concept of having to add ballast because of the removal of the mast.  The ballast is only there to offset the pressure of the sail and to make sure that the boat will right in a gust.  No mast, no sail and no necessity for a righting moment.  The weight of the added cabin house should keep the waterline the same and maybe even lower it in which case you would want to remove ballast.

[hoddinr]

I have to agree with Tom L. regarding the need for a momentum stopping mast of some sort on a sailboat minus the mast.

I was bringing a Newport 20 home to it's slip after a bottom painting with the mast lashed to the deck and got in a fierce cross sea.  I could not believe the intensity of the snap back from one side to the other with the mast down.
That's when I read up on and learned how the mast acts like a pendulum to slow the rolling. 

Most trawlers have some kind of small mast atop their cabins to set a steadying sail as Tom described.  Probably won't help that much, but obviously some, or it wouldn't be so common on trawlers.

Ron

[mayrel]

This is great information!  And we do have the hardware/rigging to install a stay sail.  With that in mind, adding a pilot house and/or dodger with extended cockpit cover and leaving the mast/rigging as is might be a better idea.  The only modification would be to shorten the mainsail so as to raise the boom higher to accommodate the cockpit cover/dodger.  I don't think full standing headroom is necessary in the cockpit, but 5' would be nice.  By adding a frame and canvas dodger/cockpit cover and changing out the main sail to raise the boom, you'd essentially have a make-shift pilot house sailboat.  I have my halyards run to the cockpit which would remain in place.  I might re-route the furling control line on top of the cabin(in fact, I may do this anyway).  Naturally you wouldn't have a totally water tight seal but it would certainly keep the majority of water out.  I was thinking the cockpit cover would stop right under the end of the boom, leaving standing room for docking.  If you wanted to make the dodger and top fixed, this might cost a bit more, depending on how much work you did yourself.  I really appreciate this information, I think for us this might be the most logical way to go.  We still get to sail when conditions are right, but when motoring or sailing, we have much better protection, and we haven't butchered the boat in the process.  I sure wish I had a way to draw this up to see how it would look. 

[mayrel]

I checked with Gerry Hutchins concerning shortening the main with the thought in mind we could fit a pilot house and turn her into a motor sailor configuration.  He said the only draw back essentially is performance under sail.  Obviously this is an option, mainly driven by the amount of head room desired in the pilot house.  Keith at Sailing Co. cuts a large section of the top out of the cabin to include the bulkhead, then fits a plywood/epoxy/glassed pilot house.  Having not seen one completed, I assume the headroom is obtained by cutting away the cabin top to provide standing headroom in the cabin interior, not in the cockpit.  He has used the CP16 and CP23to achieve a motor sailor conversion, but not a CP19.  I'm more inclined to leave the boat basically as is, fit a raised dodger(fixed or canvas)with a cockpit cover of some size with the potential for side curtains.  This configuration would require shortening the main sail in order to raise the boom.  Nothing else is modified.
This would provide a protected cockpit area for day sailing and/or cruising. If you wanted a enclosed cockpit, just add side panels.  Cost to shorten the sail and add the dodger/cockpit cover would likely be expensive($3000 or more??).  Considering the cost to buy a different boat, the depreciation value of our CP19, this might be a viable alternative.  Just modify the 19 and keep it till we can't use it anymore due to physical incapabilities.

[mikew]

I priced out a front windshield and side curtains made from Sunbrella canvas and vinyl window material for my cp-16. This would
match up to my present 5' long Bimini already on the boat. They would attach with zippers or grommets. The price came to about $400 for materials from www.sailrite.com. A heavy duty sewing machine would be needed or I could farm it out to a local canvas/car upholstery shop. The idea like yours would be to make a canvas " pilot house". Just some more ideas to keep the costs down.

Mike

[mayrel]

Hello Mike,
  I've thought about adding a canvas dodger/cockpit cover, and also shortening the main sail to gain a bit more headroom.  This approach seems to be the least invasive modification(mounting the dodger and cockpit cover would only require some snaps and pad eyes)and there would be no change to the existing structure of the boat.  Shortening the main sail, according to Gerry Hutchins, would reduce sailing performance to some degree, however I'm not convinced it would be significant.  After all, this is not a fast boat to begin with.  With a cockpit cover extending about half way over the cockpit, steering, sailing, docking and overall handling would not be impacted significantly.  Possibly hand holds would be needed on top of the cockpit cover, forward enough to facilitate going forward would be needed.  These could be in the form of sewn on straps vice fixed hard wood and/or aluminum hand holds.  Given the side decks are narrow, for safety, some form of hand holds would be necessary, or certainly prudent.  Entry and exit through the sliding hatch companionway would remain as is, but I think raising the boom even 6" would provide enough additional head room. The main upside of this modification is no structural modifications are needed.  If in the future another owner desired to return the boat to it's original configuration, this would simple require changing out the mains sail and removing the dodger/cockpit cover.  However, it would also be possible to lower the dodger and cockpit cover without too much trouble.
Our main reason for thinking of this modification is to extend the use of the boat as we grow older, providing additional protection in the cockpit.  Essentially the boat could be used as a mini-trawler-pilot house sailboat.  If a full cockpit enclosure was desired, adding side curtains would be another possibility.  With all the lines lead to the cockpit(as they currently are), very little would change in being able to sail the boat.  We have the CDI furler.  The 6hp Tohatsu Pro-sail motor pushes the boat at about 6-7mph without running it at full throttle, steering can be enhanced with a connecting rod to the tiller/motor.  We have the boat on the market for sale or trade for a 20' cuddy cabin power boat.  However, we so do enjoy this boat that I'm inclined to make these modifications and keep the boat until we can physically no longer manage this boat safely.