Ground tackle (SYSTEM) for 23

[cw021382]

I am getting ready to order new working/storm ground tackle for my 23, and am curious what others are using.  My 23d is a 1993 model, and it does not have a backing plate on the bow cleat.  That is the first change I am making.  The second is a new style rigid bobstay which I have already ordered from Compac.  I am changing it because I use a heavy anchor and want to leave it in the anchor roller for trailering.  There would be no support without the forestay.  I am debating on thru bolting the chocks with backing plates for mooring.  I do not want a windlass, but pulling power is not a problem.  We will mainly use the boat to cruise for 6-8 weeks in the summers.  We will anchor out most of the time.  Here is what I have it narrowed down to:

Boat 3300lbs empty.  Loaded for cruising with 2 people + fuel + water 4500ish?

Anchor:       33lb Rocna, or 35lb Mantus                           33-35 lbs     
Chain:         Acco 30'  5/16" G4 HT                                    31      lbs     WL:  3500 lbs
Line:           200' 1/2" Sampson Pro-Set 3 strand             13      lbs      WL:  3500 lbs
Shackles:    Crosby G-209 forged 3/8"                              N/A               WL:  4400 lbs

I wanted to keep the weight under 75lbs and this is as close I could get and be comfortable with my choices. 

What do you use, and does anyone have any experience with the Rocna or Mantus anchors?  I have a 35lb CQR from my last boat, but think these new gen anchors are worth trying.

-Chris

[frank]

Anchor talks are generally like religion and politics  :-)
Everyone has an opinion.

That said, I always figure "use the biggest anchor you can handle comfortably and the type you trust from experience"

A 33lb Rocna and 5/16th chain seems overkill on a 23....but if you can handle it...why not.
You'll be the one trying to sleep when the wind is howling some night!

I use a 22lb Delta and 1/4 HT on my 23PH and found it to be lots......almost overkill.
Cruised the Keys and throughout the Abacos...never dragged once.

[cw021382]

Thanks Frank,  you're right we all pay our money and take our choice.  I feel comfortable with a heavy anchor and short heavy chain down low with nylon up top.  Simple heavy cleat for the line, with no bridle or chain hook to worry about, or mess with.  The larger chain allows the use of a forged shackle that meets my criteria.  The working loads I listed are for new gear.  With some age they will be a lot less, but still with a very good margin of error for my needs.  We're hoping to cruise the Abacos next year if time off from work permits.

-Chris

[Shawn]

Chris,

I had a similar weight setup on Serenity though in different proportions. I had a Raya 800 (surface area 800 cm^2) that was 16 pounds and 38 feet of 3/8" chain and 300' of 1/2 double braid. The Raya was rated for 9,000 pound 33' boat in 60 knots of wind. The Raya had a very high surface area to weight ratio and both Manson and Rocna now have models that are derivatives of it the Boss and Vulcan anchors. Putting that all down kept me in place well.

I would strongly suggest you also consider some form of lunch hook. All of the above was a PITA when I just wanted to anchor for an hour or two in calm conditions. I used a few different anchors as lunch hooks. I had a Raya 400 (8 pounds) and a 16 pound genuine Bruce that I used a lunch hooks with 9' of chain and the rest rope.

Something like a Fortress FX16 would give huge holding power as a lunch hook but only weighs 11 pounds. One of them will be on my Sabre for that role. Currently I am using the Raya as well as it fits in the anchor locker. When I get an anchor roller installed I'm most likely going to move up to a Raya 1000 and keep it on deck.

Shawn

[cw021382]

Shawn, I have 9 and 14 lb danforths with short chain that will be use for stern and lunch hooks.  I am considering 250-300' of 3-strand, but not sure I need it.  With 200' line and 30' chain I can anchor in water 15' deep with a 10-1 scope and 30' with 5-1.  I guess it couldn't hurt and there is room for it with no real weight penalty so why not?  I am curious why you opted for 3/8" over 5/16" chain and then used a lighter anchor?  I would prefer the extra 20lbs in the anchor to help it dig better and hold better due to its larger surface area.  Am I missing something?
 
-Chris

[thomeng55]

OFF THE ANCHOR TOPIC

I see 2 people who either sailed to the Abocos or plan to.  Is there another thread of posts you have posted to this.  It is on my 2016 schedule.

Thanks and sorry for off topic.

Tom

[Jim23]

Chris,

I sail on a mountain lake so no issues with tide or swells. The worst I deal with is 3-4' chop and highly variable gusting winds, sometimes gale force. I purchased a 13# Mantus with 5' of 1/4" chain and 150' of 3/8" 3 strand. I could not be happier with performance of this anchor/setup. The Mantus sets immediately and holds strong in shifting winds. My secondary is a 15# claw with 10' of 3/8" chain and 150' of 1/2" 3 strand.

Your selections look pretty heavy but like Frank said if you're OK with the extra weight then it's a good insurance policy.

I've often wondered if the cleat/sprit/hardware could even handle 2000 lb. loads. I think I might prefer my anchor drag a few feet to absorb the impact. I'm a believer in the ability of a long rode to absorb shock loads. That's the reason I went with 3/8" rather than 1/2". With a few hundred feet paid out and plenty of scope you're unlikely to ever see this kind of loading.

Check out this Practical Sailor article about real world anchor loads. They appear to be a lot lower than what most folks believe. The test boat is a 6 ton catamaran (heavy windage) in up to 30 knots. At 7:1 scope the peak loads were typically =<700 lbs. At 10:1 shock loads mostly disappeared. At 3:1 they were able to obtain a max shock load of 1400 lbs. but discontinued the test for safety. The writer compared it to ramming the boat in to a brick wall.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_17/features/anchor_testing_rode_loads_10784-1.html

[brackish]

My primary is a 15lb. CQR with 20' of 1/4" chain and 300' of 3/8" 3 strand.  My secondary is a Fortress Guardian G-11 with 15' of 3/16" chain and 150' of 3/8" 3 strand.

The CQR came with the boat, I added the Guardian.  When I got the boat I considered that the primary CQR might be too small.  I mostly lake sail and anchor in very protective coves, in fact rarely use an anchor, just tie up to a tree on the bank and use the Guardian off the stern to limit swing.  The first time I got to actually test the CQR rig was in Pensacola, FL, anchored in sand in about 4' of water in Santa Rosa Sound with a 10:1, when a severe squall came up with winds sustained at 60 MPH according to the weather report.  Storm lasted about 45 minutes, many of the boat in the flotilla drug, but I stayed put.  So unless my anchoring requirements change, I'll trust what I've got.

I also think you may have a bit of overkill with your plan, but if you sleep well at night it is probably worth it.

[Shawn]

Glad you have the lunch hooks, you may use them more often than the main rig.

"I would prefer the extra 20lbs in the anchor to help it dig better and hold better due to its larger surface area.  Am I missing something?"

I added the longer chain later on as I got a great deal on it. The heavier anchor wouldn't have had more surface area than the Raya. The 16 pound Raya has the same surface area as the 33 pound Spade 800. Probably very similar in surface area to the Manson and Rocna you are considering as well. With the extra weight in the chain it is a bit easier to bring it up (assuming shallow water) compared to all the weight at the end. I wouldn't want to go any bigger than this as it gets to the point where I'm not sure we have enough power to really set the anchors properly. That can be an issue on a wind/tide shift if your chain fouls and not fully set anchor.

Shawn

[frank]

OFF THE ANCHOR TOPIC

I see 2 people who either sailed to the Abocos or plan to.  Is there another thread of posts you have posted to this.  It is on my 2016 schedule.

Thanks and sorry for off topic.

Tom

Tom.....check your messages. Don't want to hijack this thread  :-)

[cw021382]

Guys, thanks for keeping this thread civil, and just stating what you use and why.  As always it's the people that make this site great.  Shawn, thanks for explaining about the raya I didn't know anything about it.  The surface area of the rocna and mantus are almost doubled from 15lb to 35lb.  Jim, it's good to know that the mantus is working for you.  Regarding surface areas of anchors this is where the rocna and mantus differ greatly.  The mantus only has about 2/3 of the surface area of an equal weight rocna.  Their fluke is much narrower and shorter.  The fluke of the rocna is carried the full width of the roll bar and on the 33lb model is 4-5 inches longer.  I don't know about the raya because I can't find the data online, but if it is like the spade it has somewhat less surface area/lb than the mantus.  Examples:  Mantus   35     1000cm2
                                                                       Rocna     15      1030cm2
                                                                       Rocna     33     1695cm2
                                                                       Spade     33      800cm2
                                             
My thoughts are this:  The mantus will probably set better than the rocna in a hard or grassy bottom, but the rocna will probably hold better once set.  Resetting is probably better with the mantus.  The mantus fluke must be thicker and heavier because it's shank is 5" shorter than the rocna.

I ordered 300' of 1/2" 3 strand earlier and my shackle.  I am ordering my chain from defender with some other things.  They have the best price anywhere for 5/16 Acco G4 chain (3.29/ft).  

The anchor is the last decision.  

-Chris

[Shawn]

Chris,

Your surface areas looks like you mixed units between the comparison some are in pounds, some are in kgs.

The Rocna 15 is 15kg, 33 pounds and 1030cm2. The steel Spade was 33 pounds for 800cm2 (15 pounds for the same surface area in the aluminum version), my steel Raya 800 is 16 pounds for 800cm2. For 1000cm2 the Raya 1000 is about 27 pounds.

Not sure about the Mantus sizes as their site is broken on those. If you play with the settings you can have it tell you the same anchor has very different surface areas or that different weight anchors have the same surface area.

If I were in the market today (Raya NLA) I'd probably go with the Manson Boss or Mantus. Rocna had too much funny business a couple of years ago WRT claimed vs actual steel quality. West Marine ended up offering a full refund for anyone that bought a Rocna from them.

Shawn

[HeaveToo]

Most tests confirm that the newer generation anchors work extremely well.

Now....Consider where you are anchoring.  You don't want to use a backhoe for a one shovel job.  Think of the WORST conditions you see...wind, waves, current, and depth.  Think of the storms you encounter.

On the Chesapeake I carried a Lewmar 33lb anchor with 30' of 1/4" chain.  It held in a 60 knot storm and it reset when I did the 180 at the initial wind shift (sailed over my anchor at 3 knots).  That boat weighted over 10,000 pounds.

On the Compac I am carrying a 22lb Lewmar Claw with 30' of 1/4" chain.  I think that I am well set with the chain size and anchor size for my area. 

There isn't a windlass on the boat....remember that.  Remember hauling in 30' of chain with a 35 pound newer generation anchor.  That is a lot of work.

Why am I using a claw in my area?   Because I know it works.  I know it works because I have used one for 8 years.  It is also more affordable.  If I had my say I would do a 25 pound newer generation anchor, like a Manson Supreme.

Anchor opinions are like A$$es.......We all have them.  You will hear 99 different answers for the 100 people you ask.

[frank]

Anchor opinions are like A$$es.......We all have them.  You will hear 99 different answers for the 100 people you ask.

TRUE THAT!!!!!!!!!

Great advice!!! All very true!

[cw021382]

Shawn, I did indeed get the units mixed up.  That explains why the surface area of the rocna looked out of place.  I got out my old anchor today and loaded it into the roller of the 23.  It is a sascot 30 cast, not a genuine cqr.  The hinge settles nicely against the cheek plates of the roller, but keeps the anchor from loading all the way in.  However, even if it did it would probably hit the furler.  I now wonder if the shank height on the mantus 35lb would fit. 



Heave, I don't want to oversize my gear to much, but hauling a 35lb anchor and 30lbs of chain by hand is really no strain for me.  I might not want to do it all the time in the deep anchorages of the NW, but in 30' or less of water it is no big deal.  My wife is very small and there is no way she can manually pull in the anchor.  Even going to a smaller setup would not solve this.  I feel that she should be able to set and weigh anchor alone if needed but without a windlass that is not going to happen.  I think she might be able to use a genoa winch in an emergency.  It is something we will have to practice.  When we cruise the Bahamas it will be in the summers because we still work, and while hurricanes in June and July are not the norm, strong storms do happen quite often.  Large ground tackle that is well set will make my anchor watch less stressful.   

I have thought about installing an oversize bow eye with a really strong backing plate and splicing a 1/2" 3 strand snubber to it.  I would use a mantus captive chain hook on the other end.  This would eliminate 4' of depth that I would have to add scope for.  Example:  For 10-1 in 10' of water I would only need 100' of line vs 140 if attached at the bowsprit.  The most important benefit would be no chafe.  I don't know how I could easily attach the line though since I am not using all chain rode.  If it would work I wonder if the boat would sail around less at anchor?

-Chris