INBOARD RUDDER

[Bob23]

I'm addressing this question specifically to 23 owners but it could be put in other places here on the site. I've toyed with the idea of converting the stock transom hung rudder to an inboard type, like the 27 has. My reasons are:
1. I'm hoping to eliminate all excessive weather helm.
2. I think it would be a simpler system- no raising and lowering the blade, no driving the rudder into the prop  while motoring.  (no, I haven't done this yet)
3. Possibly some better maneuverability.
4. Maybe it would allow the boat to point a bit higher.
I'm sure there are others.
I'm not a designer but I do admit to having an overactive mind sometimes...my wife might beg to differ.
Has anyone else ever thought of this or am I a madman? I plan on contacting the factory as well as Keith at the sailboat shop. I think it would not be terribly difficult but on paper, what is?
Bob23

[HeaveToo]

That would be a huge modification.  Think of it....You would have to put a big hole in the bottom of the boat and build up a pipe for the rudder shaft to go through.

Then you also have to deal with more damage if you ground it. 

You are in NJ, you also have those damn crab pots and they are really good at snagging things.  Imagine having to get out of your boat to free a pot off of your rudder (I think that act is a right of passage in the Chesapeake Bay).

I don't get the bad weather helm on my boat because I have the foiled rudder.  If you don't have it then it is a great upgrade.  It would be a lot cheaper than adding an inboard rudder.

[Bob23]

Hmm...good points all.
 I do also have a foiled rudder... but it's a nature of the 23's to have some weather helm, sometimes a bit excessive when the wind pipes up. When I made my foiled blade, I do admit to making it a bit too wide although I did add a lot to the leading edge. It works great and was a great improvement to the boat, but I was just wondering about the inboard rudder idea. Maybe I should just leave well enough alone.
 Here is a shot of the blade, not fully forward, as you can see- no tension on the downhaul.

  The one problem I've always had with my downhaul, is that the blade is never in the all the way down position. I didn't realize how far back the blade points; this could be the main part of all my weather helm issues. So maybe I'll devise a new downhaul idea that insures the blade is keep all the way forward...got all winter to devise something.
  I hadn't given thought to the unsnagging issue- good point. Good to have friends to help sort things out. Still, I think it would be doable modification. SLAP! What did I just say?

Bob23

[HeaveToo]

I have a solid bar that keeps my rudder down.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23ontrailer_zps7b8ebc96.jpg

You can see it on the back of the boat.  I am not sure if it is a standard thing but it works well keeping the rudder down or up.  There is a bungee cord to hold it in place better.

[Bob23]

Thanks. But tell me more about that hard dodger I see. I've been toying with that also but looks like you've done it already. If you have any detail photos, maybe you can email them to me?
Thanks,
Bob23

[MacGyver]

Surprisingly a inboard rudder conversion would be a pretty cool project if you had the room.... I would need to be in the back on a 23 to know for sure, but I think the mod would be interesting and doable....... then again, I am a little silly,...... what do I know about doing stuff like that?

Too bad you dont live closer...... I might actually talk you into doing it! LOL

Mac

[HeaveToo]

The previous owner had the hard dodger made for the boat.  I really don't like it too much since I am use to a soft dodger and I like being able to put the connector on it.  It may be a piece that I end up selling.

[HeaveToo]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23sailing_zps606d5d55.jpg

Here is another picture of it. 

I wish it was the same perimeters as the soft dodger.  It just covers the companionway and that is all. 

[HeaveToo]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/HeaveToo/Compac23_zps7d6cf4f4.jpg

One more shot of it on the boat.

After I moved the boat from where Norm had it to my home I haven't put the dodger back on it. 

[Salty19]

My vote is to build another rudder instead. Put a bit more leading edge on it and maintain the NACA0012 profile closely, keeping the chord width to a minimum ( 1 1/4" or so).

You'll see reduced weather helm, a little less drag and a little better maneuverability.  And a heck of a lot easier to do and revert to your current setup as needed.

The Com-pac hold down bar design (for lack of a better term) looks like the way to go to hold the blade down.   I bet a welder could craft something for you at a pretty low cost...

[jthatcher]

Hi Bob,
  one of the  things that i love about the 23 is that there are no thru hulls..  i would be reluctant to dill a hole for a rudder post .. although, as the owner of a first generation boat, i certainly know about weather helm!     but, speaking of drilling holes..   my rudder has a hole  through which a nylon bolt is threaded..    when the rudder hits bottom the nylon bolt  shears...   i know.. i have experienced it a number of times    but , under normal operation, the  bolt keeps the rudder in the down position very well.     

of course , the associated problem which i have experienced not once but twice, is that if the bolt shears while i am under power.. the  rudder floats  to the surface and becomes a favorite target of the prop..  thus the  conical scar that is on the port side of my  otherwise, very nicely shaped rudder!    jt

[HeaveToo]

I have heard talk about the bolts and the rudder kicking up. 

The system that is on my boat means that I don't have to use a pin to keep the rudder in place.

One thought.....If you are using a bolt for a pin why not use a dow rod of diameter that fits into the pin hole.  It will swell and stay in there when wet and it will break easier than a bolt.  It is also cheaper!

[Bob23]

I've heard that the swollen dowels are hard to remove.
   I think you guys have steered me (pun intended) in a good direction. Although I'm intrigued about the inboard rudder, and feel it would be a relatively easy project for someone experienced, like Mac, my next tack is this:
   Alter the existing rudder plate where it rides in the rudder housing to allow the rudder to angle forward more out of plumb than it currently does. Then add the hold down bar to keep the blade as far forward as possible. But it would be cool to have an inboard rudder. I think the shaft is nothing more than a stuffing box arrangement.
   In either case, looks like a next winter project.
Bob23

[mattman]

I have read comment after comment regarding weather helm on Compacs. I am not convinced this is an inherent flaw in the boats.  Last year I bought an 85 cp 16, put on new standing rigging, new running rigging and a new set of Doyles. I stepped the mast straight up and get just a wee bit of lee helm, rake back about 4 turns on the turnbuckles and the boat is neutral in light air and dialed in pretty good for 10kts.  Before doing any rudder work I would put on new sails-not off the shelf stuff, but have them made for your boat, with measurements from your boat, and for the conditions you sail in. At the CLR there were several 16's on the water, we all started at the same time, and granted I might have gotten some advantage as the wind went left, however I was pointing and footing better than the other guys which I attribute to sail shape and hull trim. I have to think a new main is less expensive than a new rudder assembly and you need new sails every few years anyway....if you are using 10 year old sails that have any time on them, that explains the weather helm and performance issues. Merry Christmas everyone!

[MacGyver]

Bob23,

Most Rudder shafts are not built using a packing (if any, although I am sure there are some out there...) but instead it would be a glassed pole/tube, with a bushing top and bottom, then the shaft merely passes through that.
The water is allowed inside, when below the water line, otherwise the water doesn't pass up through the tube except to seek its own level, so the real point being is that the top of the tube is ended above the water line.

Same principle for drop boards and the like. 

Mac