CP-16's and roller furling

[deisher6]

I would like to hear some others thoughts on roller furling on C-16's.

Went sailing with Pat M on Bogue Sound on his C-16.  The PO had installed a furling system that uses the standard jib hanks to attach the jib to a PVC pipe fitted to a drum all slid over the forestay.    Pat and I have been discussing its usefulness.  He is concerned about having to go to the foredeck to handle the jib.  I am concerned about the effency of the jib..... the luff cannot be tightened and it is a chore to rig and tension the forestay.

I too was worried about foredeck safety on our C-16.  I installed a down haul on the jib, but only used it once.  Generally anything that had to be done to the jib I handled standing up in the cabin.  If I wanted to change jibs, I docked or beached the boat.

Off topic, if you get a chance to sail with Pat M do so...he is great company, good sailor, and the Admiral makes super sandwiches.  We discovered skinny water in Bogue Sound.  Ungrounding drills are perhaps more important than man overboard drills on that sound.

regards charlie

[capt_nemo]

deisher6,

I designed, fabricated, and installed a 4' bowsprit on my 2010 17' Sun Cat and reinforced the Rig in order to play and experiment with various homemade masthead headsails. I've rigged jib downhauls and even made a simple furling device from PVC Pipe to avoid having to go forward each time I want to "douse" a headsail. And, I've owned and sailed large sailboats equipped with Harken Furling Gear for many years.

All that said, in my opinion, the addition of a simple small boat headsail furling system is the best investment a small boat owner can make in terms of headsail handling SAFETY, efficient and responsive headsail employment, and improved sailing enjoyment. This investment is especially important if the boat owner often sails solo and/or is of advanced age, like me.

If I decide to continue ownership of my Sun Cat with the 4' bowsprit addition, I'll definitely be looking at small boat furling systems for the reasons stated above.

As far as jib efficiency is concerned, get it "set" the best you can with halyard tension on the furler and be satisfied. If you're a racing sailor and strive for perfection in sail shape under all conditions STICK WITH A HANKED ON JIB.

capt_nemo

[JBC]

I sail two 16s, a CP-III with a furling jib (110%), and a Neptune without a furler.  Love the furler for all around sailing and convenience on the Compac. Love the standard jib on the Neptune for beating upwind. Just don't think the CP16 is going to suffer much for upwind performance by adding a furler.  If I'm pressed to choose, I'll stick with the CP16 for best all around boat, and sailing rig with the furler.  I also had a CP 16 with no furler, and I've found the furling arrangement with a sprit to be an improvement.

Jett

[NateD]

I'm 50/50 on having a furler on a 16, leaning toward no furler. I owned an early 80s model with no furler and rigged a downhaul. My current 16 is an early 90s and the previous owner installed a CDI FF1 on it. Undoubtedly, once the boat is on the water, I prefer the furler to hank-on. But I feel like the furler is a pain to deal with when stepping and unstepping, as well as securing the mast, and then running the jib up the furler while still on the trailer with the sail flapping is always annoying and mildly stressful for me. If you keep the head sail on the furler while trailering it would be a little better with respect to setup time and annoyance.

I guess my advice is to stick with whatever your boat already has, there are pros and cons to each. I personally wouldn't spend the money to add a furler to a 16, and I'm not inclined to buy new hank on sails for a boat that already has a furler. On my Com Pac 23, I loved the furler, MUCH more sail area to control and I only stepped the mast 1 or 2 times a year, for that boat I felt it was worth it.

[Duckie]

I sail a 16 III with a 130 genoa on a harken furler.  I have had the furler jam on me a couple times in high winds which is no fun at all.  In my opinion a down haul is much safer than a furler.  The CP 16 sails just fine on main alone in a blow.  I have both a furler system and a second head stay that mounts just aft of the furler that I can hank on a smaller jib if I want to go to the trouble.  I'm not so sure that I would want to attempt setting that up in heavy seas though.  For cruising it gives me options if I think the wind might be too much on a particular day, so that I can set it up first thing in the morning.  I guess it is a belt and suspenders kind of thing.  I actually haven't used it on the water yet, but is makes a lot of sense. 

Al

[hinmo]

Wow - you guys are making me re-think the purchase of my furler this off season. I was wondering about the stepping of the mast with the furler.

Can't you put the sail on the extrusion at the float or on the mooring without too much hassle? I did on my 25 and 34 footer. Once on, good to go for the season (I moor it all season)

hmmm

[JBC]

I mentioned "convenience" above in my first response for a CP16 with a furler.  I was describing sailing with one, but I really don't think there is a whole lot of difference between stepping the mast on a 16 without a furling rig, and one with, ONCE the sail is in place on the furling rig and ready to be used.  Of course, it's a bit less convenient to rig the sail each time on the furling tape, though I think if the boat is moored/slipped, or sitting on its trailer in dry storage, ready to launch, as in my case, then it's very convenient to rig it at the beginning of the season and take it down at the end.

I have trailer sailed my 16 with the sail in the furler but secured to the mast for travel.  Raising the rig is not much different than doing so with a forestay, but only if fine tuning is not required each time...I can certainly see that adjusting the forestay tension, etc., is more complicated with a furler, at least with the CDI style drum, because the adjustment is internal.

But if you sail as I do (adjust the rig at the beginning of the season and then check it only if it appears it needs further adjusting), then it works real well with little else to worry about.

I do trailer-sail a Neptune 16 most of the time, rather than the CP16, because it's lighter, has a swing keel which makes launching much easier, and pulls with my small cars much better on the road.  But it's nice to pull up and hitch up the CP, put it in the water, raise the main and unfurl the jib, and just get on with the pleasures of sailing.

[Duckie]

I'm not an expert at these things for sure, so maybe I have mine rigged up wrong.  However with the Harken furler I can stow the genoa simply dropped into the cabin in a loose coil.  The luff wire is sewn into the sail and with the furler attached to it while the head of the wire is pinned to the swivel on the hound.  Once I tension up the lever below the spool, the sail and mast are essentially rigged and the shrouds tensioned.  I then attach the sheets and that's it.  The whole system is quite convenient insofar as I don't have to hank on a sail or worry about the mast falling while I monkey around attaching the fore stay.   As long as I have a hold of the fore stay genoa furler and sail unit, it is a quick and simple procedure that a child could do. 

I really like the convenience of a furler.  My only concern is their reliability to perform their function when the wind is making the shrouds sing. 

Al

[jb]

I agree 100% with capt_nemo's comment

.... "All that said, in my opinion, the addition of a simple small boat headsail furling system is the best investment a small boat owner can make in terms of headsail handling SAFETY, efficient and responsive headsail employment, and improved sailing enjoyment. This investment is especially important if the boat owner often sails solo and/or is of advanced age, like me.".....

jb

[hinmo]

boat owner often sails solo and/or is of advanced age, like me.".....

or both, like me!

[Pacman]

I had a very bad experience in the Carribean on a boat with roller furling.  It jammed in high winds.  The sail was destroyed and that left us saiing under bad conditions in a vessel that was impaired to the point of being dangerous. 

That was the day that I decided that the convenience of roller furling under mild conditions was worth the danger it presented in high winds.


I prefer a downhaul for several reasons;

My downhaul can douse a sail as fast. or faster, than most roller furlers and the doused sail stays put on the deck, even in hogh winds.

It will not jam like a roller furler and, even if it did, it would not impair my ability to lower the sail.

My jib sail shape is better than that of most roller furler mounted jibs and there is no roller tube to disturb airflow.

I can easily change the tension on my jib halyard while underway.

I will never have to go out onto my foredeck under windy conditions to unjam a furler drum.

A top quality jib downhaul is a simple, effective, and cheap solution however, IMHO, roller furling is not a good choice on a C-16.

Don't even get me started on the issue of roller reefing

[deisher6]

Thank you all for your comments they are very thought provoking.
Looking at the comments: 
-I don't know if I am old yet but I will be 65 next month. 
-I do lean towards the best sail shape that I can get w/o being too obsessive like a 'racing sailor'. 
-I mis-rigged a roller furler on a Jaguar 23, twisted off the forestay and was dismasted. The Admiral has yet to forget or forgive me.
-I also gave the roller furling on our C-27 to the yard where she was stored.
-The roller furler on PatM's '16 is definitely harder to rig than a C-16 without a furler, a definite negative for trailer sailing.

Thanks again.
regards charlie

[mayrel]

Just wanted to add my experience with furling jib.  They can be convenient, if they work.  If they don't, you've got a mess on your hands, possibly putting you and crew in danger of injury.  I agree, keep things simple and reliable, use a down haul and you're safe.  Additionally you can change your head sail very easily.  On a trailerable sailboat, a furler can make rigging difficult.  I had a CDI furler on a Montgomery 17; IMO they're poor quality.  If you just have to have a furler for your little jib, spend the bucks and get the best available...John

[JBC]

See my comment above in the Sailors Lounge on the mast with a furler.  However, I really like my furler (CDI/II, a bit overkill) on my 16 III.  Have had no trouble with it.  Yes, it is a bit more of a chore to raise the mast with it attached, including headsail, but not much more, in my opinion.  I've had 16s with and without the furler arrangement.  I do trailer sail some and don't really have much more trouble rigging, though it helps to have another person along. 

As to sail shape, I'm sure it is not quite as efficient at the luff as a hanked on headsail.  But for the kind of everyday sailing that I do these days, I don't notice...my 110% furling jib always looks clean, without wrinkles, and the airflow seems very efficient on all points of sail.  But there is a bit of slack in my forestay...easier to attach when raising/lowering the mast.

I've mentioned before in other posts that I haven't had much luck with jib downhauls on some boats.  Sometimes, in higher winds, the jib will pull down, almost, but I have found it can thrash around some even when sheets are taut and the downhaul tight.  Often, I wound up going up on deck (on larger boats) to secure the sail anyway.  Just my experience.

Pretty happy with a furling headsail on my 16 all in all.  Works well for me.

Jett

[kickingbug1]

   i vote furler. i had a simple one i made for my 16 that weighed a lot less than a cdi unit so stepping the mast with it on was no problem---never changed sails though.