Issue with Mainsail project, please read and weigh in.

[MacGyver]

So, I am kind of in a pickle, and trying to wrap my head around this.
I am building a kit from Sailrite, have already done the headsail, and now have all but the edges and hardware to do on the Main.

Before I started to do the leech edge, I layed my original main on the floor of my shop then layed the new main on top. At the Head, they are set up perfectly on top of one another. The tack however for the new main is quite a bit past the old one.
So I ran to the boat and removed the Sobstad Main, and layed it on top of everything, lining the heads up, and it is shorter than my original!
The CLEW is actually closer together than the Luff is. Just something to think about.
Please see the picture of the TACK:


Here are my thoughts, please weigh in with whatever opinions, as I am trying to figure out how I might proceed...... This is a ton of work already done and I am wanting to finish this thing..... I might even forge on but I have to get a gameplan to help solve the possible issues when it is on the boat.

First off, My wife and I love the bimini, so that has to stay, meaning It will be up while sailing WHEN NEEDED. With this in mind, The current sails cleared the bimini by very little. When the boom was swinging back and forth I would venture to say about 2 to 3 inches max was above the bimini.
The head of the sail is not all the way up, as when it was, it then interfered with the topping lift, which is setup like stock was. The headboard would hit the topping lift and not allow it to flip from side to side.
My main halyard is passed through the headboard hole, and a bolen put in it pretty tight so that it can reach full height.
Other than that, with the current setups I have had no other issue.

Here is what I am thinking when faced with this issue;
1: I might have to ditch the topping lift...... this way my sail cannont get into a fight with it. But what the hell do I do in its place with convenience in mind. Boom Kicker??
2: I am thinking of changing the knot in the headboard to a passing of the line through the hole, then knot it off to keep the line from pulling through the hole, and leave it so that above the headboard is all line. this would allow the headsail to travel as high as possible.
3: Cut down the bimini and see how much more I could squeeze out of it as far as height. I know it isnt much more.
4: Install a rub strip on the bimini. This wouldnt be a big deal at all...... It would end up being a simple project in comparison to everything else.
5: Maybe not worry about sheeting in so tight, which would allow clearance to the bimini as it bows up in the center, and would allow the sail to be out further but cause me to not point very well......

Lastly, has anyone gotten a bimini, and then had a sail made where this happened? What happened and how did you fix it?

Thanks everyone, I look forward to the responses.....

Mac

[Michael]

Hi Mac,

Interesting puzzle. Reading your description of the three-layer main sandwich shown in the photo, I am unable to understand if you are saying that the head and clew of each sail coincide, or if they are different lengths; those points define the luff, which should be the base edge, and the same length for each sail. The luff of a mainsail will tend to shrink over time, so the older sails may not be quite the standard length. I would measure the luff to be certain it is within spec. Let us say it is the standard length. If this is so, and the clew of your new main is out beyond the clew of your current favorite mainsail (the Sobstad?) then the question is "why is the foot longer?" The mainsail area listed in     

Com-Pac 19 Specifications and Data Sheet  (Read 3110 times)
« on: November 12, 2004, 10:13:16 AM »

says the main has 98 square feet. However, the .SailRite web site says the main has 77.34 square feet. So something is off spec somewhere.

Did Sailrite make a mistake with the sail dimensions when cutting the cloth you are using? Has your sewing technique inadvertently made smaller seams, thus effectively increasing the area of the sail slightly? Will that extra area at the leach be hemmed and reinforced for leach lines, thus using up the extra on that edge? Can the extra be trimmed off the leach? Generally speaking, the leach of the main contributes more to heeling force and weather helm than to sailing efficiency, except when controlled perfectly, as during a race. Most of the time when cruising, excessive sail roach is a pita.  So, speaking for myself only, I think a shorter foot and less roach makes for better windward performance and less weather helm, and a happier skipper. If there is uncertainty about the correct length of the luff, or foot, I would contact Sailrite and talk over the situation. Or maybe you have an established relationship with a favorite sailmaker you can consult. Or maybe both. Were I in your situation, I would talk to people who are experts with sail construction and have dealt with this before. Do nothing on the sail until you know the answer.

If the head of your sail interferes with the topping lift, again, something is out of spec. Maybe your headboard is larger than the original? Can you slacken the topping lift more to allow the head of the sail to swing across?  In any case, I like a well functioning topping lift and would not trade it for a kicker; when I need to support the boom because of some issue that must be addressed, I need to do it without delay and want a simple, strong, secure setup. Some people advocate a wire descending from the backstay with a snap to support the boom. The wire descending from the backstay works but the boom must be close to centerline, and if you forget to unhook this line from the boom end under sail in a blow, well,... that's considered bad form (I won't answer any questions regarding how I know this). Suffice it to say that it can be a problem to release under pressure.

The Bimini does not seem to be the problem here, the sail dimensions are more likely to require correction.

Keep us informed.

Fair winds,

MM in Wonder, OR

[MacGyver]

Michael, Your post got me thinking on several other avenues.

When we installed the Bimini, it was with the Sobstad, and the original main will work with it as well.

But what really got me thinking was the shrinking..... I was unable to stretch the old sails, as I was by myself, and also on a concrete floor. So I looked up the luff of the sail in the plans and it reads 18.9 feet, which translates to : 226.8 inches.
The other numbers on the net were 18.75, and also 18.8. so those are literally within 2 inches of one another.

What I am wondering now is perhaps the old sails are shrunk somewhat. and since not stretched in the shop, look even smaller, while this new sail is as tall as she will be. When I sew the Luff and such, it will shrink some.... but not much.

I wish I would have taken a picture of the Clew end of them all. That end was very close, with the new one being just about 3 inches away from the others, maybe slightly less.

This plays to the shrinkage factor. And I could see shrinkage in the material for the luff so much so that it is probably within spec, or close enough.

So in talking this out with my wife she and I think that it is probably okay, and she wants me to continue on it. I think that worst case scenario, I loosen the topping lift, and lower the bimini and we would be good.
Had I originally set the Bimini to new sails, then I guess I would have a legitimate issue, but being they were old sails, I will just have to deal with it, especially since the numbers are so close overall.

Thinking about the topping lift issue, I probably have it too tight. No one has taught me, and no one has been sailing with me that could say "loosen that man!" or anything like that. I also havent been able to pester anyone to go with me as the times I decide to sail it is like decision made at the moment........my schedule has not been very cooperative.
I am also just now venturing to understand how the sails shape and such affects performance, so in knowing that maybe I will play with that as well.

I appreciate the comment, and all the questions and such, it really got the gears going again.

I will definitely see how it fits when done and will post about it.
Any other input is welcomed greatly
Mac

[brackish]

Admittedly I can't say for sure I fully understand what I'm looking at but the initial reaction is that the foot on the new sail must be much longer than the sail you will be replacing.  The topping lift may be the least of your worries.  Do you have enough room on the boom to get enough outhaul tension?  If not that must be addressed.  With regard to interference with the topping lift that is not material.  The topping lift has no function once the sail is raised and can and must be slacked enough to avoid that interference.  In fact one of the mistakes often made when trimming is not slacking the topping lift enough to keep it from negatively affecting sail shape and trim.  And I'm assuming that you have an adjustable topping lift or at least one that has an operating position and a slack position. Keep in mind that it can't be too loose when the main is up other than to keep it from wildly whipping around and slapping your main.  What you do have to worry about is having to raise the main so high, for instance to make room for the bimini,  that the headboard interferes with the backstay.  Mine will do that on my 23.

The part that confuses me is when you say "at the head they are perfectly aligned.  Does that mean the headboards are aligned and sit perfectly on top of each other and yet the luff does not align coming down to the tack?

[Craig]

Trying to get MY head around your problem Mac. The luff dimension will determine how high the boom rides above the bimini. It appears, as others pointed out, the foot of your sail is much longer. So long as you can get sufficient tension on the foot there should be no problem. As for the topping lift, it should be slacked off while sailing and tightened up prior to dousing the main. Running the topping lift line back to the cockpit makes adjustment much easier.Since the topping lift is attached to the end of the boom the line will swing with the boom and headboard and should not be a problem as well since it is is in line with the leech anyway. Again, if the clearance for the bimini is an issue look at that luff dimension and ways to get more hoist.

[NateD]

On my 2 16's I unclip the topping lift and attach it to the mast while sailing (mostly for aesthetics, looks cleaner than the slack line), and on my 23 I had a boom kicker (nice, but wouldn't want to deal with it on an often trailered boat).

The mainsail (for my 16/2) that I ordered this winter from Peak Sails was cut with the luff too long. Long enough that I can't even tension the luff, much less clear the bimini. Short-term, I'm just sailing with the 1st reef in. This winter I plan to take it to a local sail maker and have 12" removed from the head, and probably a batten added, resulting in a "fat headed" main. Obviously the 16 doesn't have a backstay, so I don't have to worry about clearing that, and I move the topping lift when the main is hoisted, so that isn't a problem either. I don't know if the same solution would clear the backstay on a 19, and it's possible the sail maker will tell me it's not feasible to modify the sail in that way, but it's an idea for you.

[MacGyver]

It is the luff in the picture that is too long, the foot is okay.

NateD, did Peak not want to fix it for you? I am just asking since it has been mentioned on the forums to price sails through them, and if the customer service is no good, then that might be something to consider when people price sails.

I did some more measuring this morning, I have to go to the dentist, will type what  I did after I get back.

Mac

[brackish]

It is the luff in the picture that is too long, the foot is okay.

Now I see, I had it 90 degrees out of focus thinking the luff was in the up direction in the picture.  Should have noticed that slide going to the left.

Everything in my post with regard to the topping lift still stands, if you have an adjustable it has to be slacked and with that additional length, depending on what type of lift you have it may not be long enough.  Mine is fully adjustable using the pulley, blocks, organizer and clutch spot that would normally be for the jib halyard but was idle because of the CDI furler.

The luff seems like a lot too long.  Sails don't shrink with age if anything they stretch, however wrinkles may have affected the old sail luff dimension when they are not tensioned. Since you can only take it up to the point where you avoid headboard/backstay interference and it has to be tensioned by a downhaul, what you have left over is what you will have for your Bimini.  In my world the Bimini comes first (or my wife won't go with me in the summer) so the sail will be dimensioned to allow for it.  My next sail purchase will be a new main and I'll probably make the luff a couple of inches shorter.  You also have to consider your vang angle if you have a boom vang.

[NateD]

NateD, did Peak not want to fix it for you?

First Peak tried blaming the mis-cut sail on me, saying that I ordered it for a CP16/1. When I showed that the insignias on the sail they sent were 16/2 (which means they knew I ordered for a 16/2), he stopped responding to my emails for a few days. Knowing that others had problems with customer service I then disputed part of the cost of the sails with PayPal (enough to cover having it fixed locally). That got their attention and I got an immediate email (after 3 days of not hearing from them) accusing me of fraud for disputing part of the charge. They said I needed to remove the dispute before they could even tell me how they proposed to remedy the defective sail they sent me. I politely asked that they tell me how they were going to remedy it, and then I would remove the dispute. This went back and forth a few times. I didn't get any money back (too much time had passed between when I ordered the sails during winter and when I bent them on for the first time), but I still have the dispute lodged against them, so they won't talk to me about fixing the sail. Another member of this board was able to get Peak to replace a mis-cut sail, but it took a long time. If others have the patience and persistence to fight it out with them, then you might get your warranty honored, but I'll never order from them again.

[GretchenG]

Hi, Mac--  Will you be roping the luff and foot, like the older sails?  Because that might take up a lot of the extra length in the flat sailcloth.  Roping gives the sail more of a "saucer" shape, so that the sail is 3-D.  This also lets the rope take the stretching at the edges instead of the sailcloth when you pull it taut on the spars.  See what I mean?  My two cents--  Gretcheng

[Michael]

Quoted--- Thinking about the topping lift issue, I probably have it too tight. No one has taught me, and no one has been sailing with me that could say "loosen that man!" or anything like that. I also havent been able to pester anyone to go with me as the times I decide to sail it is like decision made at the moment........my schedule has not been very cooperative.
I am also just now venturing to understand how the sails shape and such affects performance, so in knowing that maybe I will play with that as well.



Mac, when sailing the topping lift should be loose enough to flop around and allow the main to move freely. Its only purpose is to support the boom, as when reefing, or to raise the boom so you can walk around in the cockpit without whacking your head. I have also heard of its being used to support the boom while deploying a tackle from the end of the boom to retrieve a MOB (but it would have to be able to support the weight of a person being lifted from the water). I have used it to lift a dinghy, and to lower an outboard motor into position on the dinghy securely. The topping lift is a holdover from gaff-rigged mainsails. The boom on a gaff-rigged boat is usually much longer and heavier than a Marconi rig, and the sails were of natural fibers, like Egyptian cotton, and if the sail had to support the boom while reefing, the weight would stretch the leach and damage the sail. Nowadays with synthetic sail material this is not such a big issue, although keeping weight off the leach of the sail is always a good idea.

I read somewhere about a skipper who got annoyed by the topping lift flopping around and hitting the main. His solution was to fabricate a short piece of bungee with two small sheaves on the ends, and connect these sheaves around the topping lift and backstay. This device would ride up and down between backstay and topping lift, depending on the point of sail, and always hold the topping lift steady and away from the leach of the sail. I have always wanted to try this, but haven't so far.

The main should always be hoisted as far up the mast as possible to stretch the luff tight (no wrinkles in the luff). This contributes to the best sail shape. Also stretch the foot to remove wrinkles by tightening the outhaul. In heavy air, stretch both tight to flatten the sail. The sail may be flattened further by tightening the Cunningham (if it has one). The only exception to this is in light air, when the best sail shape is more rounded. In this case loosen the halyard  and allow a few wrinkles in the luff, and loosen the outhaul to allow more sail curvature.

Tell us how your boat performs with the new sails. Post some photos.

Fair winds,

MM in Wonder

[Salty19]

Mac,  I'm afraid to say, but the new sail's luff looks way too long.  You can save an inch or two by raising it up all the way with the halyard, but it's not going to be a big difference. 

I would cut off the foot edge to match the others and go from there.  Actually, I would talk to sailrite first to see what they say about it.

[kickingbug1]

    mac, when i got my new main for my catalina the foot was longer than the old blown out sail. i did measure it and it was within factory spec. we sailed on friday with the new main and it worked tremendously. and as my measurement showed it has also raised the boom up somewhat. the same thing happened when i put the new sail on my cp16.

[Shawn]

"1: I might have to ditch the topping lift...... this way my sail cannont get into a fight with it. But what the hell do I do in its place with convenience in mind. Boom Kicker??"

When the sail is full and pulling the boat the topping lift shouldn't have any tension on it. If it does that is preventing the main sheet from sheeting in as far as it could. If your topping lift isn't adjustable you should make it so. A cam cleat at the end of the boom will do it.

Instead of attaching the topping lift to the mast you could also attach it to the aft stay a few feet down to give enough clearance for the sail.

For your bimini clearance problem before cutting the bimini... get the sail as high as it can and see how high you need the boom. Put a sail stopper below the boom to keep it from dropping any further. If needed use the topping lift to keep the back of the boom from dropping to low for the bimini and don't try and sheet in any tighter than that. Add a cunningham to your main sail and you can then properly tension the luff.

Or reef....

Shawn

[mattman]

Mac, just a thought, your old sails are not tensioned, the new one is fully tensioned as shown(no bolt rope and no draft). My guess is the downhaul is roughly 4 -5 inches on the sobstad, just for fun tie the head of the old sail to something sturdy and tension the luff with 50 or 60 lbs and see how much stretch you get. I think you will be surprised. Best of luck.