Heeling, Dipping Rails?

[Geoff]

How much do you heel your CP23? How often do you dip your rails when pushing your boat? This winter we have had a lot of days with 15 gusting to 20 and I am curious how far this boat can be pushed safely.

Geoff

[Greene]

The 23 will heel over fairly readily to about 15 degrees and then really starts to stiffen up.  It takes some work to get the rail in the water, but there really isn't any reason to as they sail faster at 10 to 15 degrees.  We find that she sails just as fast if we put the first reef in the main at about 15 knots of wind.  Second reef at 18-20+ or in really gusty winds.

My 23 has a built-in heel alarm which goes off at about 20 degrees.  It emits a sound like, "That's far enough Mike!"  Pretty effective system.

Mike

[Bob23]

Mike Greene is right on. Also, when you can't keep your beer can upright without a holder, you've exceeded the maximum safe angle of heel..and made a mess of your cockpit all at the same time.
Bob23

[Restharrow]

I've had my CP23 at 35+ degrees plus.  In fact last fall I wanted to see how far she would actually go.  In stiff winds with moderate gusts on a broad reach I tried to hold her straight to heel as far as possible.  I am now convinced that unless hit with a SUDDEN blast or large rouge wave  a CP23 will not go over.  When I tried to hold her on course and got hit with a moderate blast she developed excessive weather helm and rounded up no matter how much I tried to steer her downwind.  I had the main reefed #1 with a large genoa up.  I have the foil rudder.

Steve
New CP 25 owner (previous CP23 and CP19)
Lake Champlain and Coast of Maine

[brackish]

Well I had a little trouble getting used to my 23.  I had come from sailing an Alan Payne designed 1977 Columbia 8.7 which was one of the initial transitions to the "wide body super cruisers," that many designers/manufacturers moved to at that time.  Designed as much for max cabin volume as performance they had both high initial  stability and ultimate stability.  In 16 years of owning that boat never put the lee rail awash.  Gusts had very little effect on axis rotation. 

Then I get my 23.  The slightest change in wind velocity will cause it to react with a roll to heel.    I've had the edge of the rail awash but at that point I'm building up weather helm and losing speed so I avoid going there.  I too think it would take a rogue wave and a wind gust combination with too much sail up to knock it down.  So I try to minimize heel for crew comfort and speed performance, but don't think of it as a safety issue. 

[skip1930]

So much fun.
Once after more then five years of trying to 'dip the rail' of my CP-19.
We were laughing so hard we nearly fainted.
We were almost standing straight up with feet standing on the edge of the settee lid.

It was done with only a 155% lapper and no rounding up.

Here is a pic of that day with my sister-in-law on board. It was cold and brisk.





No big deal. Big wind can knock you down. Our Star Boat hit with wind in Lake Michigan when the boat was not making way. I think I was 9 years old? Photo from dad's buddy, Warren, on his Star Boat.

[NateD]

I've had it heeled over enough for water come up over the lee combing twice. It gets the heart racing, but it was a very minor amount of water before she popped upright again. You can push her as hard as you want/dare.

[BobK]

I have put water in the cockpit enough times that I installed foam waterproofing under the sail locker covers.  I have had as much as 20 gallons come over the lee combing.  You have to fight the boats natural tendency to round up in order for this to happen.  Keep the boards in and port holes closed if you are going to try this.

[Geoff]

Wow, BobK! Ok, I have something to aspire to. Gulp.

I think I might have the same alarm system as Mike, although right now she keeps saying she enjoys putting the boat on edge.

Fun diversity of responses...

[HideAway]

We ve had HideAway over hard twice by accident.   The first time was a gybe in high winds that went wrong putting the rail waaaay under - up to the portholes.  The second was a nice sunny day on Tampa Bay sailing on a flat beam reach in light air - maybe 5- 8 kn. Sailing with the 150 and full main.  We were munching on cold pizza when out of nowhere a micro burst put the rail well under but not as bad as the first incident.  The boat popped right up in less time than  it takes to tell.  We never sail without the ports closed.   If we go off shore or on rough days the forward hatch is dogged down.  My Screaming Reach video shows what we believe is the perfect sail set.

Before we got the new, larger main sail HideAway s sweet spot was 25 degrees - With the new sail its 20 or less and faster.  We keep the rails out of the water since it slows the boat and makes a proper mess down below.  Matt

[mrtoad]

mr hideaway -

please explain - "Before we got the new, larger main sail"  - - please tell me about the larger sail

thanks

mr toad

[kickingbug1]

   embrace the "heel". its called sailing

[Bob23]

It's quite a nice feeling when the winds right, weather is right and you are in that sweet spot zone at about 15 degrees heel; the 23 is in her element then. She seems, to me at least, to be fastest then. In light winds I'll sit on the lee side to induce some heel and she enjoys that so much that I'm rewared with a bit of acceleration. Tis a fine feeling, indeed!
Bob23

[HideAway]

Mr. Toad -  Our old sail had apparently been altered - It stopped a good 6 or 8  inches from the top of the mast.  After our resident sail expert looked at it he added the difference to the spec.  The sail leaves only enough room for the fasteners.   It probably doesn't make a lot of difference but it adds sail area all the way  down.  The combination of the new sail and loose footing  makes a huge difference in speed and handling.  The boat doesn t heel as much for the wind conditions as it used to. 

[Bob23]

   I experienced the same positive change in handling when I got new sails. Before, the sails were so blown out that the force in the wind could not be translated into forward motion. When I put the new sails on, she was a boat reborn. I likend my old sails to a piece of plywood. Ever get on the wrong side of plywood when you're carrying it in the wind? You get blown over and that's what a sailboat with mishapen sails will want to do. 
   My sailmaker used 6.2 oz. Dacron in both sails. He's familiar with the typical afternoon conditions around here in the summer. I do wish I'd went with a loose footed main, though.

Bob23