When do you reef your ComPac 23?

[Geoff]

I have the original 1979 mainsail, with one set of reef points, and no jiffy reefing. It's old school in the truest sense. You reef with a real reef knot.

Well, this weekend we were launching (our CP23, still unnamed, lives on a trailer mast up at the launch) and the wind was 15knots gusting up to 22 knots per the government wind station a 1/2 mile away. Before we raised sails, we decided to throw the reef in the sail because I wasn't sure what she would handle, and this boat is still new to us.

We probably left the reef in way too long, but then again, when it's reef knots tied around your boom, it's not just a 10 second shaking of a reef.

So my question for you is, at what point do you start reefing to your first (or only) set of reef points?

We probably didn't need to reef, but with a new boat, even one that has a reputation for stiff to the wind, it's just a confidence thing.

By the way, we had a great sail on Lake Clark Hill on the GA/SC border. Except that we forgot the beer and wine, it would have been a perfect sail. It was no dream sail like ruffwind's report, but it was good for us as we get our skills up.

Cheers,
Geoff

[NateD]

Depends on what size your headsail is, how many people you have in the cockpit, size of the waves, and whether the conditions are trending toward more wind or less wind.

Because of the short stubby keel, it's best to try and keep the boat from excessively heeling if you're trying to sail upwind. But that typically has to be weighed against keeping enough sail up to drive through the choppy waves that typically accompany the stronger wind, at least where I sail. If I'm out for a nice day sail with other people in the cockpit I'll get real conservative with no mainsail and the genoa furled to about 110% if the wind is gusting in the 20-25 mph range. If I were sailing alone (or with just my wife) in 15 with occasional gusts to 20, I would probably be sailing with 1 reef in the main and the genoa somewhere between 135% and 110%.

I don't have an anemometer on my mast, so I don't always know how hard the wind is blowing. Reefing is done as needed to maintain the helm balance, speed, heeling angle, and crew comfort that is desired.

[Greene]

We have a new set of sails including a roller furling 115 headsail.  We seem to put the first reef in the main and 2 to 3 wraps on the furler at about 13 knots.  At about 18 knots we put in the second reef and bring the furler in even more to balance the sails.  We occasionally sail on headsail alone, but the boat sails better for us with both sails up and reduced.  

Mike and Brenda

[brackish]

I only have one reef point, but tend to put it in at anything over 13 knots of wind, and use a smaller jib or partially furl it, particularly if I'm going to weather.  However, I'm more inclined to comfort than most folks and prefer to keep the boat relatively flat.  I'll err on the side of caution and am willing to give up a half knot of boat speed for comfort. 

I sail year round and about the first of November I put a reef in and generally just leave it in all winter through early spring.  I also change headsails from a 135 to a 110.  Yes there are some days where the conditions are such that I'm under canvassed, but I don't really care, I'm not racing anyone, usually the only one out during that time of the year.

[Billy]

Geoff,
Sounds like you reefed at the perfect time! When in doubt, reef.

Once you get comfortable with your new boat you will know what she likes and what she doesn't. But the crew is probably one of the biggest factors.

When I have children on board or timid newbies, I reef early. When I have my crazy college buddies on board.....we never reef! However, sometimes the boat really doesn't go anywhere and I feel like I am about to snap the tiller in two due to the excessive weather helm.

I would say anything over 15 knots I reef.

Disclaimer, I own a 19 not a 23 so it is a totally different hull.

[Bob23]

My 23 seem to like her first reef at about 15 knots of wind. Depending on point of sail, I'll take a few turns on the furler. When off the wind, and if it's strong, I'll sail under headsail alone. I haven't needed the 2nd reef point yet.
A note on sails:
   After I put on my new suit of sails 3 seasons ago, I noticed less heeling and more forward motion. With my original, blown out 1985 sails, I felt I needed to reef sooner but only because of the boat's tendency to heel suddenly in the gusts. With a properly shaped sail, more force is transmitted into forward motion. Something to think about if your sails are really 1979 vintage!
Bob23

[curtisv]

When I have my crazy college buddies on board.....we never reef! However, sometimes the boat really doesn't go anywhere and I feel like I am about to snap the tiller in two due to the excessive weather helm.

I'm on my second tiller.  First one cracked.  I built one that should be indestructible 

My kids used to love seeing how far we could bury the rail into the water.  That was just silly because we were excessively heeled and we would go faster with less sail up but they enjoyed it.

I used to reef later than I do now but not because I've opted for more comfort.  I've been watching my telltales more often and it seems that I used to be pinching up a bit to windward and sailing with the windward telltale twirling.  I also reduce weather helm and heel before reefing by allowing the front of the main to backwind a little.  If I bear away a bit to get the telltales streaming right I get more boat speed but also more boat heel.  So now to keep boat heel down I reef the main a bit earlier.  This means backwinding the reefed main less and getting the jib streaming perfectly without the slowdown of excessive heel and fighting the tiller so much.  I used to put in the first reef at 15 or higher and now I put in the first reef at 12-15, if I'm sailing smart, closer to the 12 side if gusting.  Second reef also goes in earlier than it used to.

Another thing to do when wind picks up, particularly in chop, is to increase sail twist.  That means moving the jib sheet block aft along the track.  Without a traveller its harder to do on the CP23 main but the down haul and boom vang gives some control if you've added a boom vang.  Essentially you are pitching the aft of the boom up a bit.  Changes to sail twist seem to be more effective in the jib.  More sail twist in either sail dumps wind at the top of the sail (less heel) but also means that in chop or gusts there is a better chance that at least part of the sail is trimmed right.

Reaching seems to be easier.  There is no chance of the jib backwinding the main as you are off the wind so the main can be trimmed more independently of the jib.  Letting the main out to balance the sails won't backwind the main.  On a beam reach a boom vang really helps keep a good shape to the main.

Of course downwind you can comfortably carry more sail than you can upwind or on a beam reach.

You can also reduce heel by flattening the main.  Tighten the outhaul and either the downhaul (if you have one with blocks), or main halyard.  Without a traveler you need to use the vang.  Without either a traveller or vang, as with the stock CP23, I don't think you can shape the main well, but the goal is to flatten and ease the main off center.  With a traveler, set to traveler more to leeward and tighten the main to flatten.  The vang doesn't flatten as well, but tighten it without breaking the boom.  Also tighten the jib halyard.

Bagged out sails are terrible but poorly trimmed sails also don't work as well as well trimmed sails.

Curtis

[Geoff]

Great tips. Thank you. Huge help. I do have a vang, but right now my crew/wife is still figuring out how roller furled jibs work. Vang will come later, I suppose.

Another question: can you tell me how your mainsheet tackle is attached to your boat? Mine is clipped to a tang beside the tiller, and there is a tang on the opposite side of the tiller. I can unclip and reattach to the other tang, but I feel like I am missing some sort of line or rigging between those two that woulf center my mainsheet tackle, since it seems highly odd to be offset like this.

Geoff

[brackish]

Great tips. Thank you. Huge help. I do have a vang, but right now my crew/wife is still figuring out how roller furled jibs work. Vang will come later, I suppose.

Another question: can you tell me how your mainsheet tackle is attached to your boat? Mine is clipped to a tang beside the tiller, and there is a tang on the opposite side of the tiller. I can unclip and reattach to the other tang, but I feel like I am missing some sort of line or rigging between those two that woulf center my mainsheet tackle, since it seems highly odd to be offset like this.

Geoff

The standard setup for the mainsheet tackle is a standing block on the starboard side and a standing swivel block with a built in camcleat on the port side.  The line is run from the port block becket, through a double block on the end of the boom, to the starboard block then back to the double on the boom, then back to the port block and through the camcleat.  The tiller works between the sheet parts.   Pics to illustrate.



a better pic courtesy of Curtis V



Pic of the type of block that is on the port.  Imagine a single block with becket atop the spring.

[HideAway]

On HideAway we reef when one of us says "Gee, do you think we should reef?"  We prefer to reef at the dock but most of the time we do it underway.  We have hank on sails- storm, 110 and 150, so we really really don't like changing out a jib in rough conditions.    We don't pay much attention to the actual wind speed, rather how we and the boat are handling the situation.  Sometimes we reef when it is not needed just because we are tired.

We have noticed that the longer the cruise the less we reef.  Once you are used to the boats sweet spot - around 20-25 degrees on HideAway gusts are more important than wind speed and we don't want to waste our energy reefing.   Of course if we see storms about that whole concept goes the way of safety first.

Our new main sail has two reefs.  The second reef is very deep so we can leave the 110 up - we have not had to try it yet.  Get a new main sail as soon as you can -- you won't believe the difference!  Also use the vang always - it keeps the boom down.

Here is a good example of our reefing philosophy.   I would estimate the wind about 15-18- enough to blow the solar panel off the cabin.  We had the full main - loose footed by the way and the 150 genoa up - this reach went on for miles- the wind was steady and it was great fun even tho the jib got a good soaking.

http://youtu.be/xjRpcUv376U

     

[Geoff]

Hideaway, I hear you on reefing less. A lot of this is me coming from dinghies with no ballast, and just being unsure of my CP23's stability yet. But, I definitely need a new mainsail. Also noticed it is missing a batten, so that's killing sail shape as well. I am expecting the price to be about $1,000 for a decent quality (but cruising quality, not race performance) mainsail. Does that sound about right?

Thanks for the photos on the mainsheet rigging. My setup is very different. No photos are available until I get back up to the boat, but I have a double block attached to starboard tang, and a double block on boom. It works fine, and uncleats easily, but I guess I just find it weird that all of the load is on one side. I have been known to actually unclip it and swap to the other side, kind of like a traveler, but not a good idea. I think I'll dig around for a spare block and re-rig as pictured. Makes more sense...

We're excited to finally take the boat out for its first proper camping trip this weekend, which will be our first time anchoring her, cooking aboard and sleeping aboard the ship. Fun times ahead as long as we anchor properly and don't wash against a lee shore.

Cheers,
Geoff

[skip1930]

For my CP-19 ... When I see whitecaps in abundance.

Look, last Saturday the 'big windy' was happening.
The AWAS at the KSUE airport [less then a mile away from my sailing area] showed a steady 22 knots [20 knots = 23 mph], with gusts of 27 knots [25 knots = 28.8 mph].

Perfect! Reef the main, keep the head sail furled up.

Tip: Don't panic. Play out the main sheet as needed to lessen the lean.
What I found is this boat with a reefed main will not come about. Every turn was a jibe.
The jibe is done slowly and carefully.
As the turn starts, haul in the sheet. Then for a short time sail down wind to gain some speed.
Turn. Let her jibe. Control the violence with a shortened sheet.
Play out the sheet for a comfortable ride. Smooth and flat.

skip.

[HideAway]

Geoff- I think ours was just under a grand.  Its worth every penny.  Measurements are very important.  You can't just order up a Com-Pac 23 sail.  We got ours from Doyle in St PEtersburg - one of the suppliers for Com-Pac- but ours is not the same-partially due to the second reef but mostly because of the loose foot arrangement and that our sail is about 5 inches taller than the old one.  Apparently someone had the main recut probably to accommodate the Bimini but messed up the measurement.   I down loaded a form and rechecked each measurement on several forms before I asked a friend who designs boats to look at it.  The first thing he noticed was the short main .   He eyeballed it and hit the mark perfectly - but then again he has sailed most of his 70 years and designed many boats- the Flicka and the new Compac 19 hull among them.   He confirmed my measurements and calculated the reef points.  But mostly put my mind at ease.

Most good sailmakers will come out to the boat at no charge.  Another reason to buy local if possible.    We are hard aground for awhile but I'm looking at thanksgiving weekend - its either sail or lay bricks for the patio.....   the negotiations continue   Matt

[NateD]

I ordered a new genoa from a local chandlery, when I picked up the sail it had a Super Sailmakers (http://www.supersailmakers.com//com-pac-23-sails/) tag on it. When I checked the website, I found that the chandlery just ordered the stock genoa from Super Sailmakers and marked it up $150. So far I'm happy with the sail, but I think I will be ordering my new main directly from Super Sailmakers. So if you go with someone local, make sure they do some work for their money.

[Bob23]

  I had written before about my sailmaker but I'll repeat it here: I bought my new main and genoa from Eggers Sailmakers here in NJ. Dave insisted on driving down the hour and a quarter each way to measure my boat. All told, he spent about a half day measuring and driving. I have nothing but good to say about his service and his product. After 3 seasons, they are as good as new. I think for both sails and a headsail sock, it was about 2200 clams. Money well spent for great, locally made sails for a great boat. They transformed the performance of my 23 dramatically.
Bob23
http://www.johneggers.com/