Honda outboard problems

[Dave]

I have a 4 stroke Honda 5HP on my Sunday Cat.  Not the best motor I've owned - many carbureator issues.  This year was a new one.  Jets kept getting clogged, particularly the low idle jet.  After three tech visits over the summer finally tracked the problem to the fitting connecting the fuel line to the motor.  The finish on the inside of the fitting was breaking down and pieces were passing thru the fuel filter and clogging the jets.   New fitting and things are functioning.

[skip1930]

Dave I feel your pain.
As to the post below by curtisv. This is a chemical problem. And not a political problem.
Could it be that the 'plastics' are degrading in the presents of ethanol?
Which is nothing more then alcohol [a lower btu fuel] made from non-renewable distilling corn or sugar cane.
I have continuously dug out a sticky green vapor stopping sludge from my jets. It's not the metal in the carb but rather the rubber in the carb. ENOUGH!
 
British Petrolium [BP] has zero ethanol in it's premium grade fuels.  Maybe someone has a line on even more pure 'white gas'?

These lower grade ethanol infused fuels have absolutely destroyed all the elasticity in the five fuel pump bladders used in the pulse operated fuel pump
on my Mercury 5 hp-2 cycle engine. These bladders became so fagged and stretched out that no fuel was being delivered to the carbonator.

So $46.00 later to Mercury [Skipper Bud's] parts department and a few days of down time she is running well again.

Now for an additional engine modification. "Air In The Fuel Line" causing an engine stall. Fuel starvation. Hummmm.
The female fuel line snap fitting that plugs into the male fitting ON the engine always spewed fuel when the bulb was pumped up.
The 'O' ring was replaced. Still leaked. A wrap of silicone Rescue Tape last season sealed the whole works up so no air could sneak into the delivery system.
An Idea!!   Eliminate all these snap-on quick connect components. How often do I use this feature? Twice a season. Snap 'on' snap 'off'.

So I carried the O/B into Ace Hardware and sat it down on the floor in front of the aluminum/brass/copper tube selections. I picked a 5/16 inch copper tube.
That tube was the best fit -but still sloppy fit- into the plastic receiver that all this 'plug-in stuff' fits into. The rubber fuel line going to the fuel pump is on the other end of this receiver. Along with a check valve.

Once home I cut off a five inch chunk and deburred the ends and then GLUED this wetted tube into the wetted plastic receiver with EXPANDING Gorilla Glue. This stuff expands in the presents of moisture. It's magic! I even used it on my air line fittings at my aeroport shop. That's 120 psig. Sorry I digress.
Once cured, take the fuel line off and reverse blow into that line to check to see if any glue has plugged the tube. All was O.K.
Slip the fuel tank line over the copper tube with a simple hose clamp and no more fuel delivery problems and no leaks under squeeze ball pressure. "A friend of mine is a crew member on a University of South Fl research vessel.  He said they are finding enormous damage deep down from the oil and the disperants used." So dispersments are the problem? Should have left well enough alone. The solution to polution is diloution. Not flockulation to make something on water float or sink.

skip.


Generally this is how ethanol is made. Brazil just surpassed 10,000 miles of paved roads in the entire country and run a few hundred thousand engines on 100% alcohol. Something Henry Ford wanted to do, but he was talked into cracked crude oil.


Fuel separation.


What is gasoline?

[curtisv]

[ please ignore this ... Somewhat political rant on ethanol > /dev/null  (see if you can figure out that expression).  I thought we had a no politics rule.  BTW- I do agree with the main premise that ethanol in the US uses more energy than it produces.  The intent was to be more like Brazil, but their ethanol program uses sugar cane, not corn and is a big win from an net energy gained standpoint.  Ethanol is the same stuff in beer, wine, hard liquor, etc, and you can distill it from anything that will ferment.  OK - I'll shut up too. ]

I take it that your Honda is quite a few years old.  Anything built after about 2000 should be OK with ethanol in the gas.

If the carbon-eater has one plastic part that dissolves in ethanol, it probably has many.  The goo will clog the carb float needle and jets.  Best to just buy a new carb or at least a carb rebuilt kit.

I've only had to do the new carb option on a 5HP rototiller.  Otherwise all the stuff I have has survived ethanol.

Curtis

[brackish]

approximately a half mile from my house is a station that sells exclusively non ethanol gasoline.  It is about 40 cents more per gallon for each grade.  Worth every penny.  It is all I use in my boat motors and yard equipment.

I also leave my gas hooked up and do not run the gas out of my motor when leaving it for a few weeks.  Keeps the area for temperature differential condensation to a minimum and a drop of water sitting in an aluminum carb bowl can corrode and plug a jet. 

This season, motor started on pull two each and every time I went to the boat.  To be fair, it is a new Sailpro, however the eight year old Suzuki did just as well.

Don't get me started on the economics.  The only thing the subsidy has done is create a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico from runoff that is far more impacting than every oil spill in history including the recent BP which was an media sensationalized, overstated nonevent.  That, and it made a lot of big corn farmers wealthy and increased food costs at the grocery store.

[Dave]

Ethanol is the usual suspect.  But, the motor is 2008 - you'd think by then Honda would have figured it out.  I also have a lot of experence with the Tohutso 6HP SailPro and have had no problems with it  Leaving aside political considerations, ethanol seems to be the universal excise for any problem with marine engines.  At some poimt the manufacturers have to deal with it.

[HideAway]

As mentioned above I ve heard the Hondas have air lock problems concerning the gas tank.   Our 8hp 2cycle Evinrude turns 20 next spring and still runs strong.  I always use a gas extender  and mid grade gas with ethanol.  I never run the engine dry after use, leaving the hose attached to the engine.   We don't sail much in the summer so the motor sat for over two months.  on Labor day weekend it was a hard start and I had to shoot some carb cleaner into the air baffle to start it.  It ran fine and started with one easy pull the rest of the three days we had it in the water.  I use a 3 gal plastic tank - my 6 gal metal rusted from the inside.

There is no question ethanol is nasty stuff.  The only reason it works in cars is that you burn enough gas in normal use to prevent water formation. 
By the way the BP oil disaster is ongoing.  A friend of mine is a crew member on a University of South Fl research vessel.  He said they are finding enormous damage deep down from the oil and the disperants used.  Every now and then an article appears in the press but it's mostly been forgotton.  I know most of the BP gas stations are franchises but I just cannot do business with them - I suppose if my truck blew up from a manufacturing defect I'd never buy another Ford either- I'm just that way.

Growing up on the Great Plains I'm very pleased to see grain farmers finally making a good living but it doesn't make sense to me to turn food into gasoline.   

[curtisv]

Ethanol is the usual suspect.  But, the motor is 2008 - you'd think by then Honda would have figured it out.

Are you sure it is 2008.  I thought Honda went to all fuel injection in 2008, or maybe that was the 8HP and up.

Could it be that there is ethanol soluble plastic in a fitting or a washer or gasket in the fuel line or in the tank if you have one of those gas cap gas gauges?

Curtis

[Gil Weiss]

Both me and a sailing friend, who also has a ComPac 19, switched from gasoline motors to Torqueedo Travel 1003 long shaft electric motors. I have used this motor for the past year and a half with no problems and no stress. No pull cords, no smell, no noise, no dirt, etc. . . . 

Gil

[MacGyver]

Are you sure it is 2008.  I thought Honda went to all fuel injection in 2008, or maybe that was the 8HP and up.

Could it be that there is ethanol soluble plastic in a fitting or a washer or gasket in the fuel line or in the tank if you have one of those gas cap gas gauges?

Curtis

The smaller engines havent been switched yet.

Mac

[skip1930]

Honda and all manufactures are in the same boat.

My friends son works at Mercury Marine's Racing Division in Wisconsin which is wrestling with four cycle engine emissions that burn mixed fuels with E-10 and up and coming E-15. In short-->On the road vehicles worry less about unburned emissions because the air/fuel mixture is 'finish burned' down stream of the engine's in catalytic converter.

These 'E' fuels have imposed a greater problem in marine applications with fuel injection than they have with carbureted engines. Older carbureted engines simply pass the effluents out the exhaust and 'who cares?' Not any more.

By nature, fuel injection breaks up the fuel/air molecules even finer [read smaller] than naturally aspirated fed engines for a more complete burn.
The problem ... ? Unlike automotive concerns, keeping those incredibly tiny fuel injection marine ports open. They clog-up and the engine stumbles or is fuel starved.

Without getting too technical the alcohol/ethanol molecule is physically larger than smaller gasoline molecules and both fuels have a different vapor pressure making it difficult to deal with one and not the other. In short, vapors burn. Liquids don't. Some unburned hydrocarbon carbon emissions escape in the exhaust un burned and are NOT dwelt with down stream when out board engines are considered.

The reason for fuel injection was to further incinerate the fuel/air mix into an 'almost undetectable' emission. The inability to accomplish this will result in a catalytic converter device being fitted to low hp [yet to be determined] out board motors. Yes that's coming.

FYI; Akin in a way to reverse osmosis where only a smaller water molecule can pass through a particular membrane leaving all other larger molecules found in the water behind. To finish ... Once plugged the membrane is reversed flushed and made ready to filter again. A digress on skip's part.

To read more about 'E' fuels and what the impact is on boating refer to BoatU.S. magazine in the October-November 2013 issue at "Congress takes a look at Ethanol" found at www.BoatUS.com/gov for updates on Renewable Fuel Standard [RFS] reform and other issues affecting boaters. Self inflicted costs of production for gasoline in this country may raise prices per gallon by 30% and diesel by 300% by 2015.

skip.

[curtisv]

Skip,

Thanks for the link.  There is a bad link on the BoatUS web page.  The "More" link is OK.  Or go directly to the URL http://www.boatus.com/gov/fed/fed_archives/fed_E15.asp

I didn't follow the logic in your description of what the problem is with ethanol.  The fuel injection nozzle opening is much larger than any molecule (a few tens of nanometers for big molecules).  1/64 inch is about 400 million nanometers.  Also not sure why the vapor pressure matters.  Once combustion starts both gas and ethanol are completely vaporized.  A fine mist may help better mix the fuel and air during initial combustion, but that's about all the benefit.

AFAIK The two main benefits of fuel injection are: 1) more accurate fuel air mix, therefore less hydrocarbon (HC) emission, 2) fuel is injected into swirling air and therefore is concentrated in the vortex which if the plug is placed in or near the center of the vortex will start the burn in a richer mixture and complete the burn in a leaner mixture.  This is called the stratified charge effect and a lot of the benefit comes from an intake manifold and combustion chamber shape that produces a good vortex, but injection helps.  The mix gets hottest where combustion starts in the rich vortex and not getting the lean part of the mix too hot allows an overall leaner mix (less HC) without oxygen and nitrogen burning and forming nitric and nitrous oxide (these mix with water and form nitric and nitrous acid which given enough causes of acid rain, dead conifer forests, respiration problems, asthma, etc).

I just did a web search on "ethanol fuel injection issues" and the top issue seems to be water in the gas due to condensation causing separation of the ethanol and water mix from the gas.  Too mush water or close to too much water and a drop in temperature can cause separation into an incombustible water and ethanol mix at the bottom of the tank and gas above that.  Below saturation the ethanol and water and gas stay mixed.  Just above saturation, almost all of the ethanol and water separate out.  That affects carburators every bit as much as fuel injection because about 10% of the tank has an incombustible mix when this occurs.  The other problems (quoted from http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine-2) are:

Alcohol is corrosive and can degrade plastic, rubber or even metal parts in the fuel system that weren't engineered to use alcohol-bearing fuel. Consequently, that antique Evinrude outboard or '60s lawn tractor you bought at the swap meet might need some upgrading to stay together on today's gas. That means corrosion-resistant tanks, alcohol-tolerant rubber lines, seals and fuel-pump diaphragms, and plastic fuel-system parts that won't swell up in the presence of alcohol. Vintage boats with internal fiberglass tanks often have issues with the coating inside the tank failing, ­sometimes requiring massive structural modifications. Highly tuned two-stroke engines will run leaner (and consequently hotter) on the lower Btu/gallon alcohol mix, potentially leading to melted pistons and scuffed cylinder walls. Alcohol will also scour varnish and deposits out of the fuel system that have remained in place for years, which will eventually wind up in the filter or main jet, choking off the engine's fuel supply. Worse yet, the alcohol itself ­oxidizes in the tank and produces a tenacious brown glop that's far more damaging to fuel systems than the ­varnish we're used to seeing in pure petroleum fuels. In warmer weather, you can see varnish starting to form within a month of dispensing fresh fuel into a vehicle tank or storage can.

I didn't find any mention of vapor pressure or molecular size or molecule.  I did find the word hydroscopic (absorbs water) from time to time.

Anyway, back to the original problem.  Some of the articles say fuel lines, fuel filters, fuel pump bulbs, gaskets in the fuel delivery can all cause problems even for newer boats because they can slowly dissolve and clog jets in carburators or clog injectors.  Check out the advice in http://highlandstoday.com/news/agri-leader/2008/jun/22/problem-ethanol-ar-311037/ near the bottom of the article.

Curtis

[skip1930]

Well your correct. I'm mixing articles.
We have a publication on Tuning Holley Carburetors that I used when racing in A Sport Race. S.C.C.A.
An Aircraft Power Plant Manual out of the '40s dealing with altitude compensated and non compensated carburetors.
Another on Aircraft Pratt Whitney Turbine Manual. Hot sections.
The Nature of Boats by David Kerr. Vapor pressures.
Skunkworks by ben Rich. Finding an air molecule at 86,000 foot. Lubricating at the limits. Making Flit Bug Killer combust.
And talking with Chuck Holtz about what his kids was working on at Mercury.
Their are other articles in BoatU.S. about clean burn diesels.

Such is life.  skip.

[curtisv]

Skip,

High altitude and low vapor pressure fuel could be a bad combination.  Vapor lock is where the fuel turns to vapor before its time, like in the carb bowl, the fuel lines, etc.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock

Curtis