somebody throw me a line....

[ramble on]

I am feeling like I have crossed some invisible line. Have I offended the forum by asking for performance indicators? Are yall embarrassed by what your com-pac 23/3 does?

Please post a sampling of what I could expect if I buy this boat.


Thanks,

Ramble On

[Windhawk]

Between the Melges 24, which planes quite nicely I understand, and a CP23 with respect to speed, there is no comparison.  I think you can plane a Melges at something like 12 to 14 knots.  I've hit 5.8 knots steady in about 20 knots true on a reach.  It's quite a ride at anything over 4.5 knots, but she's not meant as a racer.

Didn't some guys sneak into the Chi-Mac race last year in a 24?  Ballsy stunt that.

I'd have no fear to cruise the Chi-Mac race in a CP-23 with a proper weather window, but we wouldn't be there for the party.  Either you're very new to sailing, or you're trying to get rise out of us.  The boats are just too different to even talk about a comparison.  I'd like a ride on a 24, but I put a diesel in my 23 for a reason: single-handed distance cruising.  

When I get ready to go to Florida, I'm going around Michigan through the canals, and down the ICW.  I'd say nobody's going to be doing that on a 24, but as soon as I do, someone will.  

If you are knew to sailing, I don't mean to be rude.  If you're trying to get a rise out of us, you're barking up the wrong tree.  I mean, I spent 50K outfitting a new 23; I would have bought a new M24 if it would've matched my needs, which it does not.

[Windhawk]

I just went and took a good look at an M24.  Looks like a fun boat, and if that's what you want, go for it; but I don't think you could give me one:

Base Price: $42,750 (sans motor & sails)
Trailer: $4,220 (can you spell overpriced, I can get you one for about 3K)
Engine Bracket: $225
3HP Engine: $975 (well, she comes in at 1,783 lbs so 3HP is OK)
Assorted other toys: $6,000
Assorted performance toys: $4,000
Bottom Paint: Call for quote (est. $1,000 to $1,200)

Of course, you likely won't keep it in a slip because the cabin is really a glorified storage trunk.  No sleeping onboard unless you use a boom tent.

Draft: 5 feet (where do they race, in the Ocean?).

So, for about $60K (sans sails), you get a hotshot one-design surf-pounder that you can't sleep on-board?  :shock:

What's a good set of sails going to cost?  Likely, about 5K, but I'd bet you can go up to 15K easy.  And how many sets of sails do you need each year to be competitive? 2 or 3?  Ouch  :!:

What happens in a short chop?  You go to the dentist on Monday to have your fillings replaced, that's what.

What happens in a big chop?  You launch & crash & launch & crash  :cry:

The motto: "Comfort be damned, look at our spray!"

I happen to like just about every sailboat ever built, with the possible exception of some ferro-cement thingies concocted by landlubbing dreamers, and the M24 is a pretty cool boat, but come on.  What do you do with it when you aren't racing?  I doubt that it'd be comfortably enough to have a few cold ones in.  As for sleeping in a tent, well, that why they use ground stakes with tents, they belong on the ground.

To each his own.    

In a classic turtle vs. hare effort, I challenge you to race me from Holland, Michigan to Key West, Florida via New York, and the ICW.  Except, I think you're really young, and you don't quite have the boat as yet.  Keep on savin' Dude.  I'll be sailin'  

[jhansen1951]

Ramble,
When you made your first post I replied with all the info I could.  Namely, that a CP-23 will easily attain hull speed.  Anything beyond that involves too many variables to make specific statements.  Things like the type/size/condition of the sails, condition of the hull bottom, winds, and especially the skill of the sailor has to enter the equation.  I've overtaken and passed J-24's when the J-boat was not well-handled.

I noticed that you stated in an earlier post that you have often exceeded hull speed in a displacement boat.  I'd be interested to know how you did that (what boat, sails, conditions).  I'm not being sarcastic here, I'd just like to know.

Fair winds and smooth sailing to you.

John

[ramble on]

Hey John,

I  had 2 unreal experiences with Ramble On, a 24' Seaforth Coastal Cruiser. This 1980 full keel, 4,000 lb. displacement double ender, was 24"LOA, 20' LOD with a 17' waterline. My normal top speeds had been in the 5 knot realm. This was on a lake in north central Alabama. With gusts and heavy healing, she would climb the bow wave for a moment or two and hit in the 6s and sometimes 7s. My all time high burst was 7.9. A very nice 2 seconds.

The big experiences happenned in big water in May of 2004. My buddy, Jim and 20 year old son Kyle trailered her to Ft. Lauderdale headed for Bimini. Ramble On was as ready as possible; brand news sails  (full battened main and roller furling jib) bottom had fresh paint and was very smooth. We were towing my 9' Fatty Knees dingy, Ramble Off.

The big number was during our aborted attempt to cross the Gulf Stream. Before we knew it the seas were large (12') with very smooth rollers. We were so busy holding on that we flew along at 11 knots OG for a while with out knowing it. This was a Garmin reading. We didn`t feel this speed as the stream was adding quite a bit of power.

More fun was what happened the next day. We had given up on the crossing and had made a new plan to sail down the keys. After a night of slumming it at the Miami marina we got through the cut into deeper water and turned right. We were flying along on a beam reach in the upper 5s when I remembered the new 250 sq. ft. gennaker. Setting this in the solid 25  knot breeze was like kicking in a turbo charger. We flew over the 3' seas at a steady 7 to 7.6 knots. The main was up with no reef.

This was more than any of us thought possible. The steering was very difficult as she rounded up more than once. Our rocket ride had lasted almost an hour when capt`n Kyle spotted some uncharted reefs. We had had enough. (The bilge pumped out some strange liquid)

I have often wondered what would have happened if we had not been towing a dingy full of gear. I used to think faster but now I am not so sure. My new theory is the dingy acted as a drogue and kept us on our heading.

On this same trip the 9' non-planeing dingy sailed at 5 knots (Garmin, again) in this wind. I later figured the theoretical hull speed in the mid 3s. Fabulous wind and my big butt can do the job!

I would love to hear any theories you might have about this.  

Ramble On

[Craig Weis]

This is all kind of neat but what is the point?
Fast sailboats and slow sailboats, never shall
the two mingle. I don't want a Melgus anything.
It's like a big surf board with overpriced go 'fast
stuff' all over it. And it's wet. Ever sail at night
shipping spray all the way? Me neither and I'm
too 'not crazy enough to start now'!
Just give me a slow easy to sail boat of comfort.
What a joy.
Come to think about it, my Star boat had a bit of a kick.
And my Penquin was a blast. skip

[jhansen1951]

Ramble,
I suspect you already know the things I'm going to say but here goes.  Unless I've missed something important over the last twenty-some-odd years of sailing, the only way for a displacement boat to exceed hull speed is to make the bow ride up over the bow wave.  I saw this done once in a light racing boat by getting the entire crew on the stern and having them bounce up and down.  The weight aft caused the bow to lift.  I've also read that this can happen in heavy conditions with a following sea but I can't testify to it as all my sailing has been on inland lakes.  Either way, the boat ceases to be a displacement hull and planes over the water for at least a short time.

I'm not familiar with your former boat, which doesn't mean much because there are a LOT of boats I'm not familiar with!   :roll: I do have a fair amount of experience with the CP-23 and I can only say that it is the closest thing to the perfect boat for me that I've ever run across.  I'm not a racer.  I am a guy who wants to spend weekends or longer aboard comfortably and be able to sail in less than ideal conditions without having the rail in the water.  The CP will do that.  Considering how low Lake Travis is at the moment, the shoal keel is a plus too.  It's a boat I'm happy with and have confidence in.  Only you can decide if it is also the boat for you.  The best way to find out is to go sail one.  If you ever get to the Austin, Texas area look me up and I'll take you out on the lake.  I'm listed in the Yellow Pages as "Hansen Precision" under "Gunsmiths".

Fair winds and smooth sailing,
John

[ramble on]

Hey John,

Thanks for your reply and kind offer to take me out in your CP23. I am already sold on this model as I love traditional lines and am at a point where another project is not an option. The condition of this boat is amazing! I can see why there is such a rabid user group.

About the exceptional speeds we experienced, here is all I know; I am not the most seasoned sailor but have been at it hard for 30 years. I, like you, don`t know every boat but am familiar with the several I have owned. The only performance hull I have had was a Chrysler Dagger, which would plane with a good breeze. My 5 other dingys would not.  

The Seaforth, which is shorted, heavier and less canvassed than a CP23 had always been very predictable. Before the Keys trip, I had never imagined breaking the normal speeds. I am not a fluid physicist nor have I studied hull design. But here is my layman`s theory or question: If a 20 knot breeze will get you to 5.7 with jib and main, what should happen when you increase sail area (gennaker) by 50%, turn downwind where she is not heeling and increase the breeze substantially? I don`t know the formula but have read that going from 20 to 25 knots of wind is not x plus 5 but an exponential addition of force. I don`t know if she climbed over the bow wave. I do know this was much faster than anything she had ever done before (and we, Jim and I, had sailed her alot). Continued spray was also abnormal. (If not for the new rigging, i would not have sailed her so hard)

Another aspect of this was the light seas in such heavy wind. We were not climbing up and surfing down. I think the shallow water kept the seas calm.

I would love to hear from others who have sailed in like circumstances with comparable set ups.

Thanks,

Ramble On

[jhansen1951]

Ramble,
Beats me what happened in the Keys but it sounds like one of those times to remember!  Good luck with getting your boat.  The CP23 is rare enough in these parts that other sailors often stop and take a closer look when she's sitting in her slip.

John