Advice Requested: I want to make an offer on CP-23 1984

neosoul · July 07, 2013, 12:58:22 PM

Hello,
Many of you may have already read my exploits under the title "Advice Requested: Looking at a CP-23 1981" well much has happened since my last post. I decided against finding a CP-19, rather I set my sights on finding a CP-23, even tough my wife's mini-van can't tow it. My mind was changed when I was talking to to a few neighbors and they offered to tow the boat when I needed to take the boat to the marina which is less than a mile away from my house. Since I have a mooring I will only need their assistance twice a year. (My philosophy has always been if you want good neighbors, you have to be a good neighbor and over the years we've all helped each other out as situations arise.)
Once I had this problem solved I began my quest to find a CP-23 that was within the budget, including transportation costs from its current location to my home marina on the North Fork of Long Island.

So I am now at the point where I think I found THE boat. It's an 1984 CP-23 and it's located about 7 1/2 hours away from my house. A boatyard is selling this boat for a longtime customer who has developed skin cancer and will no longer be using the boat. The asking price is $4,500. I found a local boat transporter who looked at the trailer and said to fix the trailer and make it "road-worthy" for transporting it the 350 miles will cost $1,000. (the tongue of the trailer is bent, the tires are mismatched, and the condition of the bearings are suspect and would need to be replaced.)

So I know the cost to transport, but what I do not know is what is this boat worth? Like so many CP-23s I have seen advertised for sale, this is not a pristine gem that was kept babied and that's fine with me, because many of those boats are not priced for me to buy. This boat does show some signs of neglect, but does the neglect compromise safety at sea for me and the family? As I mentioned in previous posts I am a newbie when it comes to Com-Pacs. My previous boat for the last 25+ years was a 17' O'Day Daysailer. This is a big step for me. I know some things jumped out to me immediately about this boat and you'll see them in the photos below. Some items I noticed:
* I know the bottom needs to be scraped and painted.
* There are some cracks and dings on the starboard side of the boat. The dings penetrate the gel-coat and I am unsure about the cracks. (This is something I feel I can repair or pay someone to do)
* All the wood on the outside has been neglected, but again my kids can help me sand and vanish it then it should be fine.
* There appears to be some water coming in the cabin from the mounted compass.

Other than these items I could not find anything wrong. This, of course, does not mean there isn't anything else wrong with this boat. I did not see the mast because it was on a rack with many other masts and no one at the yard was around to tell me which one belonged to the CP-23. So with all that said, If any one can comment on the photo's below and let me know if you see any "red-flag" items that I missed, I'd be grateful.

I was thinking of offering $3,000 and see where that takes me. I do not want to pay the asking price of $4,500. I need to figure in the transportation costs to any final price on this boat. I appreciate any advice you CP owners can provide. Also, tell me if I am going about this wrong or if this is a good strategy. I look forward to hearing your comments.

Thanks,
Neo

Here are the photos aka sailboat porn:

bob lamb · July 07, 2013, 01:54:53 PM

Hey Cap
Here's my 2 cents. First of all, its a Compac. These boats are built near bulletproof. I see nothing (except the trailer) that cannot be fixed with lots of Elbow grease and a few minor products. You can do it yourself, with your kids. Mine was in worse shape than that when I bought her, and I've been sailing her for 10 years now. Half the fun of having a boat is working on her. I'd pay the money to get that trailer road ready. They are very hard to find.
Offer? No comment, but my little ship is "priceless."

Bob

Craig · July 07, 2013, 02:13:09 PM

Agree with Bob! Make an offer that works for you and give it a shot. By the way, know Southold well. Spent many wonderful summers in Orient and truely love the area!

Bob23 · July 07, 2013, 02:25:52 PM

Neo:
If you can get it for 3k, I'd jump at it. I had to put $1300.00 into my trailer to get it road worthy when I bought my 1985 23/2 which is essentially your boat. That was just for parts- I did all the work myself. I don't begrudge any money I put into it.
And I agree with Bob...they are near bullet proof. Spend a fair bit of time with just you and the boat...get to know her...look at the bottom and the sails and the rigging...but the bottom line is: Is she the one? You'll know it when she is. Let us know how you make out.

Bob23

jgsharpe · July 07, 2013, 02:34:22 PM

Go ahead and step the mast and hoist all the sails before you buy to be sure everything is there. The seller should have no problem with this. If you don't have all the shrouds and sails, or if they need repair, you will want to factor in the extra cost to complete the rig. Hope it works out for you, looks like a worthy project to get another 23 back in the water.

MacGyver · July 07, 2013, 06:49:43 PM

I have a post in the cp19 section, basically I bought ours kinda that same way, the good thing was the interior and the sails were in good shape.

I have done a bunch of work, It isnt easy stuff, but the end result is well worth it...... And being a marina tech for 16 years, I can tell you with certainty that these boats are solid...... has to be the best boat that I know of in all seriousness.

I can check the BUC book for you if you want it valued, I will try to look at all the pictures later this evening, have to go out to dinner tonight with my wife

Mac

Billy · July 07, 2013, 08:32:51 PM

I say,if it is all there, regardless of the condition of the sails, $4,500 is a fair price.

If you can get it for less.....great!
If not......still great!

NateD · July 07, 2013, 09:57:55 PM

A few years ago I did a statistical analysis of used Com-Pac prices for 16s, 19s, and 23s (http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=2892.0). If I plug in a 1984, in below average condition (old sails, very few upgrades or additions) with a trailer, the model says the average asking price should be about $4,200 with a 1 standard deviation range of $2,300 to $6,060. So the asking price isn't too far off. However, personally I don't think it is worth that much until you see the rig up, the sails hoisted, and the motor runs. New genoa=$1,300, new main=$1,000, good used motor=$500-$1,000. So if there are problems with any of those, start subtracting off the asking price. Also, you mentioned simply "scraping" the bottom and repainting. To take the old paint off you're talking about a couple hundred dollars and 2 horrible days with chemicals/grinders/sanders to remove the old stuff yourself, or $700-$1,500 to have it removed by a professional, then another couple hundred for new paint. So don't underestimate the expense/DIY pain involved there. No mater what, verify that the boat has a roller furler. That jib tag says RF on it, so if the boat doesn't have a roller furler, you'll have to add hanks or spend another $1,000+ for a furler or a new jib.

The estimate on the trailer sounds fair enough. 175/80-13 tires are going to run $70-$90 each, plus about $15 for mount/balance/disposal of old ones, so figure $350-$450 for tires. I haven't done bearings so I'm not sure how much time they take, but say $50-$100 in parts and probably 1-2 hours of shop labor gets you to $150-$250 or so for the bearings. Bent tongue, I got no idea. Does the trailer have brakes?

As for transporting it, if you want someone else to tow/transport it, check out www.uship.com. I had someone tow my 23 from Atlanta to St. Paul, MN for about $1,100. If you're going to borrow someone's truck to go get it, I get about 8.5-10 mpg towing with my 1998 GMC 5.7L truck (14mpg not towing). So 7.5 hours at 60 mph is 450 miles, which would be 50 gallons of gas when towing, at say $3.75/gallon would be $187.50, and 32 gallons ($120) when driving there, so $307 just in gas.

You've got a lot of unknowns and a lot of potential expenses here. The boat yard probably doesn't want to work real hard to sell this boat given the price (they often only get a percentage), so I don't know how willing they would be to set up the mast and get a water barrel setup to test the motor, especially if you seem to be just a tire kicker. I would make it very clear that you have the cash on hand and would like to purchase it at $4,500, but you want to get the rig up and run the motor, otherwise you will take it at $x,xxx as-is. Personally, as is, I wouldn't want to pay more than $3,000 for it, but that is 33% below asking price which is a bit of a low-ball offer.

MacGyver · July 07, 2013, 11:00:52 PM

I reread you post and looked at the pictures,
Having said that I agree with NateD. He is spot on, and frankly offering 3,000 then working up from there would be a good start.
Referencing that not knowing on the engine, the trailer work, and then the work to the boat should help shuffle the price along.

If you get it for 3000, that is a steal.

Couldn't hurt to try.

Mac

HeaveToo · July 08, 2013, 01:10:46 AM

Another thing that I would check for would be soft spots in the deck. I noticed that the instruments in the cockpit bulkhead appear to have been leaking (the water marks on the wood in the interior indicate this). I would definitely watch and fix this issue. Also check around all the places where hardware is attached to the decks.

The boat may have been sitting for a while. Trailers are also something that tend to get ignored when it comes to maintenance. Definitely inspect the sails and the rigging.

If the boat is firm and hull is in good shape then you are in a good spot. Getting the trailer working would allow you to bring her home. Once she is home you can start putting your sweat equity in her.

I would rebed most of the deck hardware using butyl tape. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects is a good source for information and he also sells the rebedding tape (you can get it other places too). This is also the time to check things like the motor mount and make sure it is not leaking, it is in good shape, and it is properly installed.

If the exterior is okay and other things are okay, move to the wiring. You will probably have a dead battery. I would replace it if it isn't good. If the wiring is suspect it is not hard to do the 12v wiring in the boat. Don Casey makes a great book in sailboat wiring. http://compare.ebay.com/like/151074163216?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Outboard engines aren't that bad to work on. If it runs you are in really good shape. If it doesn't it could be the carburetor needing cleaning. Also check that you have a good flow of water coming from the engine. If not, you may want to pull the water pump. Make sure that it isn't leaking any fluids from anywhere and the fuel lines look good. You will also want to change the lower unit fluid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5uTV46R7M If there is water in the lower unit fluid it is time to replace the seals (I believe) and I have done this before in a 2 cycle outboard (it wasn't a hard job). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZzwLU07v8U&list=PL594706796F9A294F

Stuff in the cabin would be cosmetic. You could teak oil the interior wood and it would look good.

The exterior teak can be cleaned and then use cetol.

The cool part is that once you get the outboard running, make sure the sails are okay, and have the trailer set up, you can sail her for the summer and do the rest as winter projects. I love doing winter projects on the boat while waiting for the spring to hit because you can think about the fun sailing that you will do in the near future. Working on boats can be frustrating, expensive, but it can also be rewarding and fun!

neosoul · July 09, 2013, 02:36:11 PM

Folks,
I can't thank you enough for all the advice - you've all been great.
Here's the latest: Around lunchtime, yesterday (7/8/2013) I spoke with the person selling the boat over the phone. He said a few other people were also interested in the boat and after some small talk, I made my offer at $3,500. He sort of laughed and said, "Ok, I'll take the offer to the owner". (I didn't think the laugh was a good sign.) I was told to expect a text back from him last night about my offer and here I am, mid-afternoon the next day and still no word.

It seems no matter what I am doing to today my mind keeps wandering back to this boat.

Stay tuned - I'll share the outcome on my next posting here.

Salty19 · July 09, 2013, 03:58:00 PM

In my opinion, your expectations of the boat type and condition and prices are not inline with the used boat market. Hence the laugh from the broker.

You won't get that boat for $3500 (at least I doubt it). It's too nice, and when brokered--that means a large buying audience and markup due to sales commission.
Nice condition means premium price. Broker means add for his comission.

I would say either adjust your budget, save more coin, or look for a smaller boat, or one that needs repair over time (but not major, keep you on the hard repairs). The purchase price is the entry fee. Maintenance, dock, parts, taxes will cost more than the boat is worth over time. Sort of like buying a race car. Tires and track fees will cost 1/3 of the car price in a year.

It adds up fast.

BOAT=Break Out Another Thousand

Billy · July 09, 2013, 06:04:54 PM

I agree with Mike (Salty 19). See my post above, $4,500 for a 23 is a fair price in almost any condition.
(as long as it floats!)

If the seller was asking $3,500 would you offer $2,500. Something about people just don't want to pay the "asking price".

I had a garage sale a while back. Had a book for sale still in the plastic, never been opened. The sticker on the book was for $7.49. I was asking a quarter. The guy wanted to pay $0.15. I was so shocked I ended up giving him the book. I figured he needed the dime more than I did.
......some people.

I paid $2,500 for my boat 5 years ago and have spent well over $10,000 in that time. You will spend much more than $4,500 on that boat over the time you own it.

Again, $4,500 is a good deal.

MacGyver · July 09, 2013, 06:30:57 PM

At any rate, I think he was good to start at 3500, it is low ball sure, but with a bent tongue, and just a 1,000 bucks to get it off the lot brings that to 4500. or 5500 had he not made a offer.

The guy should come back with a counter offer. He should say: "I wont go any lower than 4200". OR "4500 is my bottom dollar dude......"

To me by not saying anything back he is basically not interested in selling it that much......

Billy, just my opinion, and I deal with a lot of jerks when selling stuff, that guy was talking you down hoping you would give it to him. LOL I have had to hold my ground on my prices, but luckily for me it has paid off. Like you I wont hold my ground over 10 cents. most likely on that item I would be going home and throwing it away anyway.

I have watched a friend of mine sell and buy different things, and one day I told him he was a real d*%k. but he told me, the thing is, he gets it for what he offers, and sure it might be a fight but at the end of the day the seller is cash up and he has what he wanted. I just witnessed him buy a guys boom truck for 2300, when the guy wanted 8 grand......... and my friend does this constantly currently with boom trucks turning them for profit. It is good to be a mechanic I guess....

My opinion only: you made a good move, at the least, next time offer 4 grand.. (if you want).... you might be the lucky winner. YOU NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY........ the point is to get the guy talking.

Mac

cfelle2 · July 10, 2013, 10:28:52 AM

I paid 3500 for my 1981 CP23. It was in similar condition to the one you are looking at. I think anything between 3500 - 4500 would be fair as long as the boat is complete.

Chris

Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

News:

Advice Requested: I want to make an offer on CP-23 1984

neosoul

bob lamb

Craig

Bob23

jgsharpe

MacGyver

Billy

NateD

MacGyver

HeaveToo

neosoul

Salty19

Billy

MacGyver

cfelle2