CDI Flexible Furler 2 friction problems

[mike gartland]

When I purchased my CP 23-2 about seven years ago it came with a CDI FF2 furler system.  The furling and reefing functions have always worked flawlessly...knock on wood...but raising a sail in the luff track has always been a real challenge due to excessive friction.  I have double checked the size of the luff tape, replaced the hard rubber Halyard Top Fitting (which I believe is the major culprit), even had a new jib made, and use SailKote to help lubricate the sail as it's fed into the luff track, but still have to strain like crazy from below the bow (when on the trailer) or attach the integral halyard to a long extension and use the cabin-top halyard winch to muscle the sail to the top of the forestay when on the water.  I can't imagine that it should be this hard.  And I would hate to think of having to change a head sail in an emergency while underway in an unfriendly sea...probably couldn't be done.  I have spoken to a tech representative at CDI in Homer, NY and they have not come up with any solutions other than to suggest I should maybe try using a pre-feeder.

I am open to any and all suggestions for new procedures, modifications to the CDI FF2 equipment, or special incantations to the sail gods that might solve this problem.  Thanks to all for your thoughts.

Mike
CP 23-3 WindRush

[MacGyver]

Mike,

When I work on Furlers at work, I have a procedure I do.... maybe it will help you to eliminate and narrow down the culprit.

I start by removing the sail. Then I make a loop around the furler with line, and attach a down haul line so I can retrieve the car, or top connection point.
The loop keeps the whole thing as close to the furler as possible, which it would regularly be close anyway due to the sail being in the sail track normally...

Run this contraption up and down a few times lubeing anything you can to see if that frees it up.
IF all is freed up, now you know it has to do with the sail. If not freed up, then you know it is on the unit..... I usually will take them off and inspect on the ground all the moving parts, etc. anything over 5 years old, will probably get replaced primarily meaning the sheaves, etc.

If all is well, then it would be the track slot, or sail.....
So I then run the sail up the slot by hand as far as I can (Assuming the rig is still up and I didnt have to remove it from the boat)
This will show what is going on as well. The sail should go up with  some effort, but not major effort as you speak of.

Check the leading edge of the sail (top of the Luff tape) and make sure it is clean and no edges.
Most luff tapes are a tight tolerance fit so to speak. once I had a sail splitting at the top of the luff and it was only evident by simulating with my fingers over it a tight slot, which caused it to bunch up, which caused it to bind.

This is where your problems should end...

The only other thing I can think of is that the CDI is made of a plastic composite material. I am not sure as to the total age and time the CDI has spent in the sun on this Earth, but you may need a new slot/foil section. Those come wrapped up in a roll that you uncoil and install.

If I was you, I might see if they would send you a 1 foot section to run your sail through to see if that makes the situation better before buying a new foil.

Furling systems are fun, and a nice addition to any boat. I have worked on a lot of them, The only one I hate is ProFurl.............

I hope this helps you. I will help more if I can, but this is a tough one not really seeing and feeling it all.
Mac

[wes]

Mike - do you have the original CDI internal halyard? When I acquired my boat someone had replaced it with a piece of ordinary line and performance was poor. I called CDI and ordered the correct halyard (with the de-cored end) and this cleared up most of my problems. It still requires a pretty good pull to raise the sail, but certainly not so much that a winch would be needed. I agree that with the CDI furler changing a headsail out on the water is a challenge, friction or not. I always change sails at the dock, and try to err on the side of smaller if I'm in doubt.

Wes

[mike gartland]

Mac and Wes...thanks to you both for the suggestions.  They both give me a few avenues to pursue.  I have no idea how old the CDI luff foil might be but know for sure it is older than 7 years (the length of time I have owned the boat) and suspect it is much closer to the 27 year age of WindRush.  I have replaced the original (to me) halyard with one of the newer decored variety with the metal ferrule...so I don't think the halyard is the problem.  I really wish that CDI would somehow redesign the Halyard Top Fitting to incorporate a true sheave that could rotate as most (all?) other furling systems do.  But reading your observations about how the sail should behave as it is raised up the luff assembly makes me now think that the friction within the old luff plastic is the culprit.  If the friction...and effort needed to continue to move the sail up the track...was constant from bottom to top, I would be inclined to blame the lack of a sheave in the Halyard Top Fitting.  But that isn't the case.  The sail moves relatively easily up the first few feet and then becomes progressively harder as more sail is added.  The real struggle comes in getting the last few feet up to the masthead.  This suggests that it's friction between the sail and the plastic of the luff.  Maybe Mac's suggestion of experimenting with a short piece of new luff would convince of this and encourage me to replace the luff.  I plan to step the mast this coming weekend and have the boat in the water by Sunday morning.  I will attempt to dry lube the foil well before raising the mast and bend on the jib and see if that won't get me going for this season at least.  Thanks again for the input.

Mike

[SpeakEasy]

When you say "dry lube" have you tried spray silicone? I've got the same furling system, and I've used spray silicone for this.

[skip1930]

My buddy uses a CDI Flexible Furler. After eight years of messing around rigging that thing every summer I have not figured that thing out yet.
It's a complete mystery to the skipster. We got it working but it's not factory perfect.

That thing goes up, and the head sail halyard for the boat remains unused 'cept for the spinnaker halyard? This year I'm actually going to take a day and look at it. Figure out how it works, draw pictures with circles and arrows and extensive notes ... and then I'm-a-gonna-have to rest 'cause my two remaining brain cells will be used up.

skip.

[wes]

Skip - yep, the normal headsail halyard is unused when you have the CDI furler (unless you use it for a spinnaker). I was tempted to remove mine and keep it in a locker until the mainsail halyard needs replacement, but decided it might have some use in an emergency so I've kept it in place on the mast, tied off.

The CDI furler is about the simplest thing in the world once you've taken it apart and had a look. The plastic extrusion has a slot for the sail, a hollow channel in the middle for the forestay, and another slot on the side opposite the sail for the internal halyard. No bearings - the bottom rests on a fat Delrin washer so it can spin. There are practically no moving parts, which is both a blessing (lasts forever) and a curse (more friction due to no bearings).

Huge warning to all CDI owners: don't forget the invisible forestay and turnbuckle that are now hiding inside the furler. I take mine apart once a year to check for rust or loose fittings.

Wes

[Bob23]

Wes:
   Good word on the hidden turnbuckle. After reading an article in Good Old Boat which detailed a dismasting due to the forestay breaking just above the turnbuckle, I did the same as you: pulled it off in the fall and disassembled everything for an inspection. And, yes- it's doesn't get much simpler than a CDI.
   I use my headsail halyard to hoist my riding sail on the backstay. I just ran it through the mast head backwards so in effect, I have 2 mainsail halyards. But not really.
Mike:
   There is a lot of friction and I think it's just inherent in the system. Seems like when hoisting the genoa, the last feet feet are a real bugger. I use a piece of 5/16" line for a messenger and it gives me better grip when raising the sail. Thankfully, I only have to do it once a season.
   Otherwise, I love the CDI. It has given my no problems whatsoever.
Bob23   

[mike gartland]

Bob,

I agree that it works great once you get that genny to the top...and like you, I only do it once a year so it's not a big deal, just seems that there shouldn't be so much friction in the system.  But there are times I would like to fly a smaller jib...maybe even a storm sail when the main is reefed...but I don't even want to think about because of the pain too get the genoa back up the CDI.  I've even thought lately about trying to rig something that's been called a Solent Stay...just aft of the headstay, that could be moved out of the way for normal furler sailing but used to fly a small hanked-on storm jib when the winds demand.  But just thinking about it at the moment.  And I fully agree that the hidden turnbuckle and its cotterpins/rings should be inspected at least once a year; wouldn't be a nice surprise to have the mast suddenly join you in the cockpit.

[brackish]

I've got to say, I haven't experienced any difficulty raising either of my sails in the CDI.  I stand on the dock with the bow pulled up so I can do it from there.  You have to get the sail luff so that it is lined up and parallel with the furler extrusion.  That means you pull about three feet of sail down off the foredeck and line it up then lift it.   Then stop and pull some more sail off the foredeck and do it again .  It goes up easily until you run out of sail that is lined up and it does not want to turn 90 degrees from the foredeck.  Each time I pull some down, I spray on sailkote.  Goes up easily.  A little more difficult if standing on the foredeck but process is the same.  Kick about three feet over the side then lift.

[pbrenton]

Mike,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMRiNPHQaBs shows a storm jib that slips over the furled roller furler jib.  Might make a partial solution.  We too struggle once a year with the FF2 jib hoist.  We've got a methodology where we tie up with the bow pointed in so that one person can stand on the float "under" the bow and hoist while the other feeds the sail on their knees in the bow pulpit (or vice versa).  The angle of the halyard is very important to easier raising - that's in addition to a number of things already mentioned.  If you can be right under place where the halyard exits the "block" at the top of the foil, effort gets a little easier. 

I consistently get the winding position wrong at the once annual raising of the jib, and inevitably have to lower the thing and start over after winding the furling line (or is it unwinding the furling line?  I can never remember!).  I guess I'm a trial-and-error kind of sailor.

Pete, CP23 "Ella J"

[jcatkeson]

I had a similar problem with a furler. The further up the foil the sail rose the more difficult it was to raise it. After much searching and use of a lubricant it developed that the problem lay in the fact that the sheave was worn and the higher the headsail rose the greater the load on the sheave. A new sheave solved the problem.