New main sail: loose footed or not, and etc.?

[Citroen/Dave]

I am considering a new main sail for my CP16/II.  My '85 that I recently splashed for the first time came with a new genny.  I was impressed with the performance, new genny and old main, but not so much when I dropped the genny as the wind increased.  Balance was not bad but the forward drive was not a strong as I had hoped.

Has anyone had experience with a loose footed main on a CP16?  I suspect that a loose footed sail will be easier to shape control, certainly easier to bend on the boom.

Also, I don't have slab reefing fittings on the boom.  Is there a real need (better sail shape) or is slab reefing just a little faster to deploy?

Moder light weight battens suggest that full length battens might be a plus.  Has anyone chosen them for a new main and do you prefer them?

Any preferences for the sail maker?

As always, thanks for your thoughts and experiences.

Dave

[nies]

Tried the loose footed main and found it less effective, maybe the lack of sail area or bias cut of the standard main did not lend itself to a free footed set up ,lot of fun messing around with it but did not perform as well as sail attached to the full length of boom..................nies

[Salty19]

I disagree, loose footed mains perform better and lend to more adjustability.   Nies, I don't at all doubt your experience, the way some sails are cut and get stretched over time can lend themselves to too much belly in the lower portion and leech when going loose footed.  New loose foot cut sails take this into account.

With strong winds, you want the outhaul tight, foot flat.  Light winds, ease up to let the foot belly out.  One can really tell a difference in speed and control dialing it in for the wind.   I would suggest full battens for best sail shape and long life.

I'm sold on National Sails and will be buying any future sails from them. Very good price and quality, seems like the best value to me. They will do whatever you want in terms of options.

There are other things to consider when buying a new mainsail

-reefing system, you mention no slab reefing, do have roller reefing?  If you want to keep roller reefing, you do not need reefing grommets (they are actually called reefing cringles)..if you want to convert to slab reefing you do need grommets, and you'll want two reef points.

-Bolt rope or slug luff.  Bolt rope is easier to use with the roller reefing, and when at rest you can roll up the mainsail to get it out of the way. This is because the luff kind of self-feeds itself (with lube and sometimes a little help) when raising sail.  But the slugs to go up and down easier, especially if you have a slip with sail ready.  

-Weight of sailcloth. Light fabric will perform well in light air but will stretch and wear more quickly, especially if used in stronger winds. Heavy fabric lasts longer and is better for high winds, but will droop in light winds. 4.5--5oz cloth is probably good for the lake.

-Color of fabric. Most go white, but you could always get crazy with color.

-Telltales-You want them!

-Sail (hull) number..don't bother unless you really want it for whatever reason.

-Outhaul block. The tension on the outhaul will be a lot higher with a loose foot then a bolt rope.  You'll want at least a 2:1 block to make it easy to pull tight in strong winds.  

On our 19, I cobbled up a cool little loose footed outhaul and reefing shackle combo with a 3:1 outhaul with cam cleat.  Makes it a cinch to reef and adjust things.  If I had a 16, I would cobble the same thing.  Here's some pics.

[carry-on]

Also considering a new main. My main sheet is mid boom to a traveler; giving fairly good control of the boom position. Would a loose footed main still have benefits.
When ordering a main, does one specify the luff and foot length and let the sailmaker work out the leech and roach?
My luff measures 15.25' without stretch. I like to stretch the luff as the wind picks up.I think this is a good number. I have seen 16.25', but on my boat that is essentially the dimension from the masthead to the main halyard cheek block....leaving no room for stretch, uncomfortably low boom and now Bimini while sailing.
Never had leech lines. Useful or unnecessary on a 16?
Any issues flaking a loose footed main? No boom furling for the main with mid boom sheeting.
Thanks for your input.
 

[skip1930]

Not.
carry-on ~ Not loose footed.
Why redesign the rig when the boat designer already has gone through the calculations?

skip.

[carry-on]

Skip,
Not what??

[Shawn]

I'm very happy with the loose footed fully battened mainsail I have on Serenity.

Shawn

[Bob23]

   On my old Force 5, I have a loose footed main. It'a a great boat to learn first hand about sail shape and experimenting in different wind conditions. Because it's such a small boat, any changes you make can be instantly felt. It's part of the fun of sailing a small boat like a Force 5. Fully adjustable outhaul, downhaul, boom vang and on top of all that- a Harken traveller!
   When I got new sails for my CP 23, I went with the original configuration but I always wondered if I should've gone with loose footed full batten. She sails just fine, don't get me wrong and I don't plan to change. But if I did it again, I'd go with loose footed.
Bob23

[Citroen/Dave]

I got to thinking about that 3 to 1 outhaul of "Salty's" pictured above.  When you get right down to it, a reefed sail is a loose footed sail.  Why not simplify from the beginning and go with a loose footed sail?  Plus, if you see a downburst coming or a wall cloud and you need to de-power instantly,  just release the cam on "Salty's" 3 to 1 and let the main flap until you get other things under control.

Loose footed I can make a temporary slab reefing system by tying a line to the boom.  No additional hardware.

I'm placing an order with Dirk at National Sails this afternoon.   Normal battens, two rows of reef cringles.  I don't want full battens in the way during my normal set up and launch procedures, (trailer sailor), plus, I want to be able to instantly de-power as mentioned above and not have to pull out long battens to get the sail in the cabin, quickly.

I am also ordering a working jib with a row of reef cringles to make it a storm jib.   In this month's issue of Small Craft Advisor, Dave Bacon has an article about a "Jib Sheet Toggle".  With this device on the jib sheet one can instantly 'reef' the jib sheets.  Very cool idea!  Plus, the same line can be used on other jibs.

[Bob23]

   A reefed sail is really not a loose footed sail. I have 2 sets of reef points in the field of my sail and can tighten or loosen as I see fit. I see your point but it's really something of a cross between a loose footed and regular footed. I don't know the proper teminology...does anyone?
   I read that article and kinda neat. I don't like the idea of a piece of wood with 2 sharp ends that close to my sail.
   I use a different system: I take a short length of line and tie a figure 8 stopper knot in one end. Run it through the grommet and then back through the grommet again tieing another figure 8 knot in the loose end. You now have a loop that you can tie your jib sheet to. If it needs to be removed, the figure 8 knots can be untied even after considerable pressure has been applied.
Bob23

[Shawn]

"I use a different system: I take a short length of line and tie a figure 8 stopper knot in one end. Run it through the grommet and then back through the grommet again tieing another figure 8 knot in the loose end. You now have a loop that you can tie your jib sheet to. If it needs to be removed, the figure 8 knots can be untied even after considerable pressure has been applied. "

Another system... whip a loop in the middle of your jib sheet. Now take a small length of line and whip in in a loop through the middle of your jib sheet loop. Pass the jib sheet loop through the grommet in your jib, pass the ends of the second loop through the jib sheet loop and pull the slack out.

I've had this system on Serenity for 2 or 3 years now and it works extremely well, is very quick and easy to disconnect and it has never come loose.

http://sailing.about.com/od/equipmentgear/ss/softshacklehowto.htm

Shawn

[Bob23]

I forgot to mention that I do indeed whip a loop in the middle of my jib sheet.
I use the same method for the rope on my flagpole which is an old Snipe mast in my front yard. I don't use those brass snap shackles...they marr the mast and remove the finish.
Bob23

[Pacman]

I do like Bob's method for attaching jib sheets.

It would be great for rapid and easy sail changes while underway.

I have never had any difficulty using simple bowlines on my jib sheets. 

Bowlines are very easy to tie and untie and I trust a good bowline completely.

However, I must admit that the soft shackle method has me thinking.

Might have to give it a try.

[kickingbug1]

     im gonna try that shawn----thanks

[Citroen/Dave]

Bob,

I'm thinking of making the Jib Toggle out of a shorter piece of aluminum for greater strength and less weight. I will round the corners a bit more.  This places all the load on the cringle with no chance of poking the sail or crew.  I really like the idea of one jib sheet for both of my jibs: less below deck storage of stuff and easier packing the sail bags.  This also makes changing jibs a little quicker, easier, and very intuitive for my crew. I realize that also means a bit more cockpit clutter of two, too long sheets with the standard jib.

I have yet to learn how to do a proper reef.  It never occurred to me that the reef lines could be used to tension the foot.  I thought the reef lines just made the mess a little neater.  Thanks for getting me to think this through.  I know: square knots.  I also like the idea of jiffy or slab reefing with the temporary set up of just a line secured to a loose footed boom. Once I master that, I can add permanent hardware on the boom.

Dave