Bilge Pump for a CP16

[Citroen/Dave]

My '83 Mark II came with a very deteriorated bilge pump and float switch that the previous owner probably left from the original owner.  The standard electrical panel had a three position bilge pump switch: off, on through the float switch, and full time on.

I understand that if someone is leaving a boat in the wet, the "on through the float switch" offers a chance that the boat will still be floating if rain should leak in, provided the battery still had some power left.

But for someone actually sailing, the "on" switch is too far away should one start sinking after a collision: I agree that the float switch is desirable.

My question will be one of pump capacity.  500 gallons per minute is not much if one has an unexpected breach in the hull.

I am thinking of up grading with a new "off", "on through the float switch" and "full time on switch", and with a new pump, float switch, and wires.  I'm thinking of a "T" on one of the cockpit drains pointing up with a loop above to prevent back flow.

Here are my questions:  Has anybody had any real life emergency where they used either the "full time on" mode or the "on through the float switch"? Does 500 gallons per minute have any real value in saving a sinking CP16, or for that matter, does a 1200 gallons per minute pump significantly up the odds of survival.

I'm sure that I will carry a roll of duct tape, should I have the time to place a patch on a sinking ship.

Any real sinking experiences out there?  My local sailing area, Smith Mountain Lake is noted for boulders, not a sandy bottom, and crazy iron wind operators especially on the week ends.

Thanks,
Citroen/Dave

P.S.  Float switch and pump forward or aft of the aft half-bulkhead and why?  Two 500 g/m pumps either side of the bulkhead?

[skip1930]

Wait a moment Mr. French car driver...it is not Gal Per Min but rather Gal per HOUR to start with. That's how they measure these pumps.

"...My question will be one of pump capacity.  500 gallons per minute is not much if one has an unexpected breach in the hull. "

Yes 500 gallons a minute is not very much, especially when its really 500 gallons an hour. Your sunk. And 500 gal an hour is only the rating at near zero foot-head pressure. Pump up hill with a centrifugal pump impeller and much of the gallonage pumped, drops. And use a circuit breaker, not a fuse. Who has time to change a fuse when your taking on water? Just tap on the circuit breaker and the pump starts again. Nothing goes up the pump but water. Keep the bilge clean. No paint to wash off.

Head for the beach full speed with the iron wind and sails up. If you can't make that because you can see no beach, then plug her up best you can.
You can try from the inside, but I'd be grabbing the boom tent plastic cloth and tie lines on it and try to cover the hole from the water side. Then tie the cloth to the boat's what ever. The water pressure should push the cloth into/onto the hole well enough to slow the leak.

Have your PFD on and grab the ditti mau bag and stay with the boat as long as you can. The Coast Guard will find your boat before they find your body.

Remember the rule of 50. 50 years old, 50 Degree water, 50 minutes. Change a few 50's, and change the time.

Turn on the electric pump and pump like a mad man on the manual pump. skip.

[kickingbug1]

  never saw a bilge pump in a 16----mine doesnt have one

[MKBLK]

Wow! There's a thought: a big hole in a CP16. I like to sail on Lake Mercer near Trenton, NJ. The lake was created from a quarry used to build I-295. Guess what the bottom is? My first time out on the lake I made the mistake of approaching the shoreline too closely. Fortunately I was going real slow and by moving to the stern (2 adults, 2 children), I was able to back off with just some cosmetic damage to the keel. But, I held my breath and worried for a bit. Rule #1 have PFD's  handy and ON THE KIDS at all times.

Some time later, same lake, spent a day with family and friends celebrating my big seven-oh when my grandson said, "PopPop, there's water in the cabin!" Sure enough, the carpet was real wet. Apparently one of the scupper pipes had separated from the cockpit deck and without the scupper plugs inserted the water was going directly into the bilge! Fortunately, I  had installed a high capacity bilge pump that I had purchased from Harbor Freight. I attached the short garden hose I always carry and turned on the pump. It sucked out that water pretty darn fast, thankfully. Ironically, the cause of the leak was my installation of the bilge pump itself! I had fabricated a plywood platform supported by the scupper tubes to hold the bilge pump, an emergency cut-off switch and power terminals for the MinnKota trolling motor. Lesson learned. I now have supports beneath the scupper tubes. I think trailer travel was the real culprit since there isn't much shock in the stern while on the water.

As far as plugging a hole, you probably have plenty of stuff to jam into it. Anything from a T-shirt to a pfd is going to help some. Skip is correct that the pressure is from outside, but you should be able to do it from within the cabin especially if the water is rough. And, again, as Skip states: Stay with the boat! Hope it never happens!!!

Marty K.

[Pete H]

Hi Citroen Dave,

I'm afraid that Skip is absolutely correct, small electric bilge pumps are usually rated in US gallons per hour. So your pump is almost certainly capable of pumping about eight gallons a minute (say two bucketfuls a minute). That isn't much and is why the old timers used to say that the fastest bailer was a frightened man with a bucket.

I once holed my previous boat (a Hartley TS18 not a Compaq but a small trailer sailer, so similar enough for this context). I hit an under water object, the remains of a derelict piling with a large rusted off bolt through it. The bolt smashed through the hull right up near the bow, below the waterline and inaccessible from inside the boat. The amount of water that came in was horrifying. It was like a high power hose. Duct tape or anything similar would have been useless against the pressure. From this point Skip's advice is spot on, you would have to cover the hole from the outside.  A tapered wooden dowell hammered in from the inside may have worked, except that a: I didn't have one and b: the hole was inaccessible. So I did what Skip suggested, luckily I was in a narrow channel and only a few hundred yards from shore so I fired up the outboard and headed for a muddy bank and rammed the boat hard ashore to get the hole above the water jumped over and stuffed the hole with a scrunched up woolen sock rammed in there.
Then turned on the bilge pump ( a large manual one, you turn them on by yelling to your teenage son, and telling him to pump like mad) this didn't work because although it was placed to draw from the lowest point in the bilge, with the boat now rammed aground with the bow elevated the stern was the lowest point, nowhere near the bilge pump.

Staying where we were not being an option I gave the sock plugging the hull a few more whacks and relaunched and head for the launching ramp which was only about half a mile away.  The football sock plug reduced the inflow to a trickle, the boat being more on on even keel meant that the bilge pump was again working again and we made it to the ramp without further incident.

So, lessons learned:  1. Try not to hole the boat
                               2. A hole below the waterline is going to let in large amounts of water
                               3. The bilge pump can't be relied on to rescue you
                               4. You will probably need to plug, patch or cover the hole from the outside
                               5. Get the boat ashore as soon as possible
                               6. My experiences were in a narrow channel, near the boat ramp, in a dead calm.  In a large body of water, well offshore, in fresh conditions (any one of these is enough to change the likely outcome unfavorably), then Goodluck!

A 500 GPH bilge pump is useful to pump out rain water, water which seeps in, in my wooden boat the centreboard bolt seal was always the problem, water which comes down the hawse pipe etc. But to be of any use in an emergency get the biggest pump that you can fit.
In my Legacy I have a 500GPh pump to take care of minor issues as above. But for a holing I would rely on trying to seal it on the outside, getting ashore as soon as possible. And in the worst case I place my faith in the Legacy's positive foam bouyancy.

P. S.   I have only ever holed a boat that once in the last fifty years, so after having taken precautions I don't worry too much.

[MacGyver]

These guys are all right, and having seen and dealing with a number of boats sinking (not my bad luck, I am a technician at a marina and have had to raise a few boats over my 16 years thus far) I can tell you that a small leak is still a big one, especially if punched thru the hull.

the pressure the boat exerts on the water to keep itself afloat is pretty great, so it is like one said "a high pressure hose" and that in itself goes to show that you have to have equal going out just to maintain.

When we go to raise a boat that is typically in the process of sinking, we get many pumps in the boat so as to be able to raise it quickly to find the issue and temporarily fix it so that we can deal with the boat.

On 2 occasions, a sump pump (1.5 HP with 1.5 inch line) wasnt enough and a trash pump (3 inch line) along with a sump pump was.

MY OPINION ONLY: I would construct a kit, with a few of those cone like foam things in it, up to 4 in case you had a rip.
if you want a bilge pump, drop in a 500 GPH unit with a clip on float, but wire it to activate the float individual to the bilge itself to if you had to go manual switch on the pump you could.
This way it could take care of the trickle effect while you motor to shore or for the ramp, or can maybe buy you small time while you swim to shove those cones in........

My wife and I keep a box, that will float, just in case of emergency, that holds the cell phones and my wallet, etc in case of a needed bail out of the boat moment.
The plan: grab the life jackets (extras, we wear auto inflators) and the cushions, and that box and bail out when it is time.

That boat cost money, lives, well, you get the point.

All you can do really is just try to buy time for yourself in a emergency.

Mac

[ahmch]

Very interesting thread.  I have a manual pump that I have never used. (I got it for cleaning and rainwater like was said earlier)  I also carry a bucket, a milk jug , and a couple of nerf footballs to stuff in a hole.  Read that somewhere, sounded like a good idea.
I holed my river boat one day. My son looked at me and said "what doe we do?"  I said, "put your foot on it"..  Fortunately I carry some fiberglass and a little 5 min epoxy as well.

[Citroen/Dave]

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR RESPONSES!

I am mortified that I remembered gallons per minute instead of gallons per hour from the boat store literature.  That alone clarifies the issue! 

If I tangle with a powered boat and there is any chance that I can do anything other than abandon ship with a PFD and survival bag, my current thinking is duct tape on the outside.  As per the on/off switch located inside the cabin, I don't think I want to go there to activate a bilge pump if the ship is sinking.  So, likely, I will install a replacement pump of MODEST capability with a float switch: should a hole be of a small diameter it might buy some time to swim with duct tape and later fashion something of a plug from the inside if the hole is above the concrete.  Anytime I'm on the water I will have the switch on the forward bulkhead in the "on through the float switch" position.

[I wonder: if a person has a last moment choice as to where to stike an object, hitting the concret-filled-keel may be a better choice than holing the hull above the concrete. . . ]

The first CP 16 I looked at had a beautifully done repair just below the water line near the bow. Totally inaccessible from the inside. I have often wondered about the story behind the hole.  I was too many owners away from that owner to find out what had happened.

Again, thanks to all for your experiences and wisdom, and taking the time to respond to my questions,
Dave

[MKBLK]

Just a small addition to my post:

Following is a description of the pump I bought from Harbor Freight. I am very satisfied with it. I purchased it primarily to remove any rain water that managed to get into the cabin/bilge. It works very well as evidenced by my story above. I made a pickup tube from PVC pipe that reaches down to the bottom at the stern. Since the stern is deepest in the water (usually) it gets most all the water out. What's left a sponge takes care of. Harbor Freight also offers a 1000 gph marine pump. 

Marty K.

12 Volt Utility Water Pump Pacific Hydrostar - item#94639 from Harbor Freight.

This outstanding water pump allows you to pump water at 260 gallons per hour at 50 PSI! Transfer irrigation water, drain a tank or perform other pumping applications easily and safely with this self-priming stainless steel pump. The water pump comes with its own mounting bracket and a 19" 18 AWG cord.
•Stainless steel pump housing
•Maximum flow: 300 gallons per hour
•Total head lift: 35 ft.
•Dual threaded inlet and outlet: 3/8"-18 NPT female and 3/4"-11 NPT male
•Includes mounting bracket
Not for use with fuel or flammable liquids.

[Citroen/Dave]

Thanks, Marty.

I will check out the Harbor Freight pump selection and look at the Walmart brand float switch.  Also, the earlier recommended breaker rather than fuse on the pump circuit. At Walmart is a breaker switch located in the trolling motor section.  I think the 50 amp breaker for the trolling motor may work for the pump but I will have to check out the rated capacities.

My brother in law, Randy Pauschs' quote on the bottom of your page drives me to try many new things.

Best regards,
Dave

[skip1930]

You can't carry that much 'battery' to run this pump for more then a few short minutes. And being from Harbor Freight, it's cheap junk from China.

A 12 volt DC wire shorted out can weld steel. Think about it. What on a 12 v DC motor car has a 50 amp fuse? Maybe a fuel pump or cooling fan [30 amp on my Ford Expedition, not even the heated seats are that high on the wife's Mercury.] I wounder what the Chevy Volt is at a 48 volt system? The higher the volt the less the amps.

A 50 amp [Shooting from the hip here but, 50 amp! That's locked rotor terratory] for a 12 v DC centrifugal pump at 5 gallons a minute? [300 an hour] is what maybe 3 to 5 amps? Whoa, you'll burn up the pump or wiring and never pop the circuit breaker or fuse on 50 amps. I'm not going to even bother looking this up.

Better recalculate. I don't believe that a centrifugal 12 v DC pump with an open impeller is going to be 80% efficient. More like 35% to 45%. Maybe with a positive displacement gear pump and a lot of hp you could see 80% efficiency.

This 300 gallon per hour is a 5 gallon per minute pump. And that rating is with zero resistance right off the discharge of the pump's hose connection, without a hose I'll bet. Free run if you will. Now we push 5 gallons 35 foot up hill at 35% to 45% efficiency. So around 2 gallons per minute.

Or say again; at 35 foot head, taking into consideration the 'slip' of the open impeller [think of it as a slinger], pulling 2 gallons of water into a 3/8 inch tube and slinging the water up 35 foot through a 3/4 inch outlet tube...just a guess, you may pump 1.75 to 2.25 gallons a minute. [depends on the liquid's temperature and density].

How heavy is that? Say 2 gallons of water x 8.33 lb/gal = 16.66 lb. So push this 16.66 lb up hill 35 foot in a minute. Or 16.66 lb water divided by 62.4 lb per cubic foot of water = about 0.266 cubic foot a minute. Of course the gallonage improves if you don't have to push the water up hill very much. I luv's it. "figures don't lie but liars do figure". That's where a manufactures performance curve graphed out for this particular pump would answer these questions.  I come up with [5 x 35] divided by [3960 x 0.40] = 0.110 hp. This seems more in line with a 12 v DC pump. At 50 pounds per square inch gage, [psig] you would be looking at 120 volt pumps. Hey would a 12v/120v inverter and a 120 volt pump be better? How long would a battery last then?

I actually have no idea what this pump can and cannot really do. But to me lower hp seems more plausible. And now that gallons pumped seems more plausible, battery life seems longer as well, I concur.

"...This outstanding water pump allows you to pump water at 260 gallons per hour [4 gallons a minute] at 50 PSI!..." I'm sorry, to me these specs for this pump just doesn't ring as being correct. -->Kind of like that wrinkled up green garden hose that they are hocking on T.V.. Yep it grows when you turn the water on. And it shrinks when you turn the water off. BUT only if the water is held back with a nozzle will the hose grow. And only if the nozzle is opened to drain the water will the hose shrink...they really don't say that in the ad.

skip.

[Tim Gardner]

I think

GPM X Head in feet  = HP req.    So   (300/60)*35  
 3960 X efficiency                             3960*.80

= .05 HP = 1/20 HP approx or 3.3amps at 12 volts.  (1 HP = 746 watts therefore 1/20 HP = 37 watts) (40 watts/12 volts = approx 3.3 amps current draw.

A 5 amp fuse would carry the load.

One could run that pump on a fully charged 150 amp-HR battery for 75 amp hrs or 75/3.5 = 21 hrs. approx.  6300 gallons worth of pumping till a 50% drop in the battery charge.

I think.  6300 gallons = 31 cubic yards of water.  A pant load.  My 19 displaces but 1.15 cu yds. of water.

Now, 50 psi is another matter. 50 psi = 115 feet of head, not 35

thoughtfully, TG

[MKBLK]

Well, without going into higher math... (which I couldn't do anyway), I can only state the obvious - the pump worked quite well for me. If it didn't, I'd junk it. Most important to me is the fact that the pump did the job in a critical situation and did it quickly without draining the battery which was also supplying power to the MinnKota 36.

When the leak was brought to my attention, I had two adults (myself included) and two children on board. If the water was already up to the carpet in the bow, that means that the bilge was probably already full! That's a lot of water. Hooking up the hose and the power clamps took about 30 seconds. It cleared most all the water out in about a minute or less. Now the point where the leak occurred was the joint between the scupper tube and the cockpit floor, so the water wasn't actually rushing in, TG! But was arriving in sufficient quantity to be of concern. This lake is very deep. I acted like it was no big deal... however, we all know how serious that situation could become. If Pegasus had gone down, I doubt that it could have been salvaged due to the depth of the lake.

My info is based solely on my experience with this pump and the specs are Pacific Hydrostar's. And I do carry bailing buckets, as well!

BTW - It was Randy Pauchs' quote that inspired me to adopt Pegasus this late in life. I'll be 71 come August. 

Marty K.

[Bob23]

   Iv'e been following this thread with interest. A few years back, whilst rowing alone on a foggy, cold afternoon near the Barnegat Inlet here in NJ this thought crossed my mind: Gravity, whose force we cannot resist, would love to drag my boat to the bottom. The only thing preventing that is the bouyancy of my boat which in turn is dependent on the waterline remaining on the outside! At the time I was rowing in the first boat I'd ever built. Usually the first of anything we do is not our best. To say it was a sobering thought is an understatement.
   Same with our Compacs. If I would hole the hull in my 23 and the pump would not keep up- you know the worst case scenario...and hopefully none of us will ever experience it. Thank goodness Marty, that you remained calm and had a good pump. A good lesson to be learned here...I think I'll repair my manual pump and possibly upgrade my meager 750gph Rule bilge pump. Not that I plan to use it, mind you.
   Mac: Your advice to carry a kit with some foam plugs and whatever else  one might need to do an emergency patch is right on. Thanks!
Bob23

[Citroen/Dave]

Harbor Freight sells a 12V battery back up Sump Pump kit - not intended for a boat.  The kit includes a 12V battery box, a vertical float switch, a controller that takes 120V to 12V as a trickle charger including an inverter taking 12V to 120V for the pump, plus an sound alarm and a 120 Volt pump of an awesome output.  I could envision a real bilge pump from this kit but I would not like to think of 120 volts running around in the bilge water during an emergency.  The kit cost about $70.


I purchased Harbor Freight's #66095 on sale for about $20.  It takes a 15 amp fuse. It is made in China probably in the same factory that makes a similar looking pump for Walmart.  This one, however, states it has a stainless steel shaft to be use in fresh or salt water and the box states "No burn out when run dry".  The instructions states: " The pump must be protected from running dry".  Go figure. . .  

1,000 gallons per hour,  1 1/8 inch discharge port, and 13 feet maximum head lift.  

That pump plus a 15 amp breaker and a $25 float switch from Walmart will be all that my boat gets for the 12V powered end of the self rescue equipment.

Pump and float switch to be located in the main bilge, forward of the aft bulkhead.  Smooth bore output hose to be accessible from the aft hatch; free end to be dumped overboard if I ever hear the darn thing running.

Dave