Fiberglassing the Hull/Deck Joint

[USMCR O-5]

I'm in the midst of an almost complete renovation of my 1993 23/3 and have the old rub rail off.  I was thinking of fiberglassing the whole hull/deck joint on the outside and on the inside where I can reach.  There is a lot of water damage inside the boat and some of it was from this joint.  Since I want to do this right, I thought I'd check in with some of the folks on here who are very familiar with working with fiberglass.  What would the best kind of glass be to bend over this joint?  The inside I'll grind and fill.  Thoughts?  Thanks!

[wes]

I wonder why the factory uses 5200 and bolts rather than glass. Maybe the joint needs some ability to flex without breaking? I would chat with Rich or Gerry Hutchins before making such a big decision.

Wes

[HideAway]

Many years ago after returning from a particularly rough time on Tampa Bay I found water in the forward lockers.   It didn't take long to track it back to the full keel- full of water that is.   I discovered a four foot area abaft the beam on the port side where the hull had separated from the topsides.   I could stick my fingers through the gap.  I cleaned that  area and pulled the goop from the others.   I used the jib winches to hold the boat to a piling to align the hull/topsides and after adding bolts sealed the area with a lot of 5200.   That has been about 15 years ago and the boat is still dry.

I thought about glassing in the inside seam but all that fiberglass dust in a confined area was scary to me.    No doubt glassing would make the boat stronger but we cruise a lot and if you have worked much with fiber glass you know how near impossible it is to clean all the dust up.  I certainly don t want to sleep in it.  Matt

[MacGyver]

Cleaning the boat out wont be a problem if you catch the dust at point of destruction.

I can tell you though that being a Fiberglass Technician the work done inside the boat is really a bear......

The proper glass would be BI AXIAL glass.
Would help allow some flexation.... but To me the best solution is 5200 in that area again.

Side Tech Talk here: Currently I am investigating using GFLEX on this joint. It has a 30 percent elongation, which would allow for the flex.
It is a modified filler, that after the joint was cleaned out really well could be injected into the joint.

This GFLEX is going to be tested on the infamous Catalina Smile once I get one of my regulars back in the shop......

I have had a number of talks with the guys at West System about the use of GFLEX. I like it a lot, and just learned a ton more about it.

I do think like Matt said, Give a call or Email Gerry or Rich about it as well. They made the boat and would better be able to tell you why they did that. I am sure it is from ease of assembly, but something to think about is that with a hard point like that, If you glue it together, and it was to be hit in the side, where does the forces go now?

My opinion is maybe GFLEX, no glass.
But if it was me I would probably return to 5200. (And I am not one for the use of 5200, but in this case I would be using it myself.)

Mac

[skip1930]

skip.

[brackish]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/Com%20Pac%2019%20Comfort%20and%20Joy/DeckJointDetail001.jpg

Now hear this.
I figure the factory know more than I do. AND...it's not possible to 'fix' a leak from the inside [of the hull]. Have to seal it up on the 'water side'.

That is all.

skip.

The powers that be have up cuffed Photobucket with an update and I can't spin the picture around...tilt your head please.

Beg to differ with you on that.  I have a very small leak which I've tracked to the normal first leak place, that area in the hull to deck seam where the chainplates pass through the flange.  It is so small that I have not addressed it, it simply drips a little on the inside of the hull in that area which dries before it reaches the bilge.  However, I did call Hutchins to get a recommendation on same.  For a small leak they recommend taking off the batten in that area and renewing the seal from  the inside.  Is it a permanent fix?  I don't think one exists for that area, you just have to reseal when the rig works the area enough to cause a leak.

Skip - the leak is both while under pressure and a result of rain water.  It leaks when the lee rail is awash which is the only way any of these seams can be under pressure.  That particular place works constantly under sail because of the chainplate attachment.  Not sure I would want to lock it up tight with GRP.

[Tim Gardner]

Skip,

Go to your photobucket home page, click on libraries, click onthe photo, click edit in the upper right of the photo and hit rotate left.

She'll roll over like a ....

[ribbed_rotting_rusting]

 I am sure I got this site from here one time or another,but you might look at it. These guys seem to really know their stuff and this particular response is about Com-pacs specifically--not to say  these fellows here don't know their stuff. The website pertains to bluewater and coastal boats. Mike


            http://plasticclassicforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2473&p=20095&hilit=compac#p20095

[ribbed_rotting_rusting]

HERE are some of the posts I found when I looked different places. Post #8 does have some photos and makes reference to some other posts. While some speculate cost containment was the reason I have to think glassing the whole thing would have actually been easier than the 5200 and rivets. I have used pneumatic rivet guns but it still takes more time to drill and rivet while using 5200 than just glassing-- I think, but cannot state as fact. Still Hutchins has been doing this for over 45+ years and has shown no reluctance to innovate so a call to them probably is in order If you still are thinking about doing it differently. Of course you may have already or some one gave you a reason I missed while researching this myself, if so please enlighten if you don't mind. Thanks MJC


the following post is by
Smier
Foredeck Crew


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Re: rub rail

« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 07:03:15 AM »

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I just re-caulked my 1980 CP16.  I used the 3M 5200 in white.  I did the entire job at once, and I didn't have to remove any of the rivets because the original caulking was so dry that it literally crumbled. I used a retractable razor knife, a screwdriver, and my cordless drill with a wire brush attachment to remove any stubborn areas of caulk.  I bought all new stainless nuts, bolts, and washers to reinstall the rub rail.  All my old bolts had bent from the shrinkage of the rub rail over the last 32 years.  I did mine in 2 stages, first I removed the rub rail, cleaned and prepped the joint, and then caulked.  I let it set up a couple of days, and then reinstalled the rub rail.  The only way I would drill and replace the factory rivets, is if I wanted to split the top deck from the hull, but that's just me.  It was really tempting to go all the way and separate the two, but I realized that once I did that I might as well just start on a complete rebuild of the boat...  I have yet to go inside and do the same to the inside of the joint, but I was able to get a good 1/4" to 1/2" bead of caulk into the exterior portion of the joint.  I highly doubt that it will leak anytime in the next 20 or 30 years!  I will however be redoing the inside in the next couple weeks to prep for interior paint before the Barnagat Bay Bash.  I bought 2 tubes, and it only took maybe 2/3's of a big tube to do the entire exterior of the 16, I highly recommend at least checking your bow eye and chain plates while you're at it.  I figure do it once and sleep well for years to come!  Just my $.02, oh and there are a couple pics of the joint in my  rescuing a 16 thread in the lounge that may help you!

Re: rub rail

« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 07:36:47 AM »

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Here's some pics of the joint with the rub rail removed:



Here's the joint caulked with the 5200, I think cure time on the 5200 is 24 hours to the touch, and one week to fully cure.





The last one is the boat before I put the rub rails back on.  I highly recommend getting yourself a box of latex gloves, it made smoothing the caulking into the joint easy and not so messy. 

[maynard]

I'll side with the glass on the inside, but I'm a pessimist and a worrier.  Recently before a 6 week cruise I checked the hull to deck joint and yes it was apart on my 1986 23'. So I took it apart completely and after sanding and cleaning I put 5200 chalk in there and bolted it back up. But have you seen the joint width, not much in my opinion plus the fiberglass had delaminated a bit so I glassed it up from the forward bulkhead back about 8' using epoxy.  Got swiped by two depressions and crossed the Gulf Stream twice with piece of mind knowing we were good unless we hit something.

[millsy]

I 'glassed the inside of my h/d joint with bi-axial/vinylester.  Up in the bow area I popped the joint open and resealed with 5200 before glassing.  Other areas I reefed out as much of the old sealant as possible-with a bent file similar to reefing a plank seam- and applied new 5200 before glassing.  The key is to get as much of the loose stuff out of the seam and get it as clean as possible in order for the 5200 to properly adhere. 

The grinding job beforehand was a mess, particularly when working in the transom area, but the interior was stripped out at the time.  To save time, I laid the glass over wet putty applied with a squeegee in the joint so I could do this in one step.  If you work with shorter, more managable strips, it makes things easier.  I also laid laid some mat to finish it out.  In the scheme of things, I don't know how much the glass stiffened things up (I didn't sail the boat beforehand), but no leaks!

Regards,
Chris

[Bob23]

Chris: Did you put the seam back together with rivets or did you bolt it?
Bob23

[millsy]

Hello Bob,

I put the joint back together with stainless steel rivets (with new holes) where I had separated it.  I suppose that this is a step up from the original alum rivets, but the rivets are used mostly to hold things together until the 5200 cures.  This method has worked well on smaller production boats for years but the joint can be be prone to damage from contacting docks or piers. 

Thru-bolts would be an even better belt/suspenders approach but then you would have to fit the vinyl rub rail around the bolts & nuts instead of just the protruding rivets, requiring more accurate drilling through the flange or the rail would have a lumpy appearance.  I have an early 23- some of the later boats probably have the plastic strip over the joint for the rub rail to fit over. 

The FRP tabbing along the interior is just another way to reinforce this area and prevent leaks.  I also used an epoxy fillet around the bulkheads where they contact the cabin top and underside of the side deck to stiffen everything, but of course this fillet and the additional tabbing at the joint would not be practical at the factory.  I have the full-height bulkheads like in the earlier 23's.

Regards,
Chris

[Shawn]

Chris,

"Thru-bolts would be an even better belt/suspenders approach but then you would have to fit the vinyl rub rail around the bolts & nuts instead of just the protruding rivets"

The hull/deck seam on my '92 23-3 was thru-bolted.

Shawn

[Bob23]

My 1985 23/2 has rivets.
bob23