pros and cons of loose footed main?

[Shawn]

"If a 2:1 only used 2 blocks, well, it's definitely a 2:1. "

You can also check it by pulling two feet of line out and seeing how far the sail moves, in your case it should move 1 foot.

To make it a three to one you would need a double block on the boom and move the block you currently have on the back of your boom to the sail. Now you would have the line starting at the sail heading to the first block on the boom (1 line) heading from the first block on the boom back to the sail (2nd line) and then from the block on the sail heading back to the second block on the boom (3rd line). The line coming out of that second block would change direction to point forward but you get no advantage from that as that pulley is fixed.

This site explains it pretty well...

http://www.technologystudent.com/gears1/pulley8.htm

"Come to think of it, if I used this as the reefing hook instead of jiffy, that line would be too short for the second reef too."

Yes, you likely would need more line. With my 6:1 setup there is a lot of line tied up in there to allow the car to move to the second reef point. I may try rigging it as 4:1 and see how that goes to cut down on some of the line. 6:1 means basically very little effort and I have very fine control over the outhaul position since I have to move 6" for the outhaul to move 1".

"As for the SS eye with outhaul..yes I'm interested. Would love a pic if you can snap one! Having a reefing hook back there would great!"

Next time I am down there I will get the price and take a picture of it for you. Having the hook is nice, just need to make sure it doesn't snag on any of the existing hardware when you are adjusting the outhaul.

Shawn

[Shawn]

Salty,

I was down at the marine consignment place again and took a look at the part I mentioned to you.





I think it is some form of a gooseneck.

If you took the extra piece off the center ring this should be useable to go loose footed and give you the reefing hook. The hook that is already on it may work as is but it would likely be a little easier if it was opened up a little wider. Then just attach the clew and the outhaul to each other at the center ring, using the ring just to hold it down, and you should be good to go. They had a box full of these. I think this one was marked $15. If you would like me to pick one up for you just let me know. It is always a fun place to stop by as you never know what you will find.

Shawn

[Bob23]

Shawn:
   Good thing that consignment shop isn't close to my house. Do you have an address for them and do they have a website?
Back to the thread:
   My 23 is fitted with a regular mainsail (is it called clubfooted?) but after reading all this, I may have it remade into a loosefooted main this winter. My sailmaker would have no problem doing this. Presently, I get to play around with this stuff on my Force 5 sailboat. For a little boat, she has a lot of strings: Downhaul, outhaul, boomvang and Harken traveler. It's a great boat to experiment with sail shape as you can instantly feel how the changes affect the boat performance. Now if I could only come up with a reefing arrangement for when the winds pick up!
bob23
   

[JTMeissner]

Shawn, the part you're holding is sometimes referred to as a dinghy gooseneck.  The sail tack goes on the hook, the middle piece is a boom pin, and the down haul is connected on the lower tang.  A new one runs about $35, depending on source.

Racelite Hardware makes similar ones for grooves or track, and may be able to fashion one to order.

-Justin

[Shawn]

Bob,

The shop is Marine Consignment of Wickford. They also have a location in Mystic, Ct. Very dangerous place... gives lots of ideas. This is where I bought my storm jib a couple of years ago. They have a website but it is never terribly up to date and it seems to be broken at the moment.

www.marineconsignment.com

When I was in a couple of weeks ago they had a Shipmate 212 wood stove/oven.... man that thing would be great in a suitable old boat.

My father had a Force Five when I was growing up. Fun little boat. Couldn't you reef the sail by rolling it around the mast?

Shawn

[Shawn]

Justin,

Thanks, makes sense. If the boom pin is removed this should work fine for an outhaul and reef hook.

Shawn

[Salty19]

Shawn,

Thanks a lot for getting those pictures.  That's an interesting part.

I like that piece of hardware, but I'm afraid the clew will tend to come out without a spring loaded gate.  Could see times like raising and lowering sail and maybe light wind tacking where the clew would slide out of the hook. That wouldn't be too fun to fix all the time.  Hmm..

Maybe a pin mounted snap shackle would work on the forward tang for the clew.  Just unshackle the clew to reef. The entire eye piece could be cutoff-don't really see a use for it?

How strong does this part appear to be and what would you say is the diameter of the slide?  If it fits on the slide, seems rugged enough for the load the rest can be modified.

[Shawn]

Salty,

"but I'm afraid the clew will tend to come out without a spring loaded gate.  Could see times like raising and lowering sail and maybe light wind tacking where the clew would slide out of the hook. That wouldn't be too fun to fix all the time.  Hmm.."

I wasn't thinking using the hook for the clew with all sail up, just using the hook when reefed. When I reef mine I do the luff hook first and then the rear hook. Once I get that hook in I tension the outhaul and use the cleat at the back of the boom to keep it hooked. So far so good.

For when all sail is up I'd just use a shackle to hold the clew to the outhaul and either to the big loop or the forward tang. Because I'm loose footed I don't need to unshackle the clew to tie in the reef.

It seemed like it would be plenty strong for this. I didn't measure the diameter but it 'felt' like it was about right. I can measure it next time I am down in that store.

Shawn

[Bob23]

Shawn: Force 5 reefing:
   In order to do that, I'd need to disconnect the boom, boom vang and downhaul, pull the boom away from the mast and rotate the mast to wrap the sail. I'd also need to extend the hook for the outhaul so it could reach further from the end of the boom. All that while sitting in high winds because, hey, that's why I'd want to reef anyway, right?
  On my old Seapearl, I had rotating goosenecks in order to roof. I don't think I had boom vangs or downhauls on the Pearl but I don't remember precisely. Reefing was easy. I probably could rig the same goosenecks on the 5 but I might invent some way to lower the sail and tie it around the boom via reefing lines. Or, most likely, I'll do nothing at all and keep it simple. It's a fun boat and I've sailed her in high winds. Scary fun!
bob23

[Shawn]

Bob,

Isn't the Force Five loose footed? Couldn't you just disconnect the clew and then wrap the sail around the mast, not roll the mast to wrap up the sail? You would need to extend the outhaul though I'd think.

Shawn

[Salty19]

Shawn,

That makes total sense about using the hook only for reefing.

I'm thinking the clew needs to be as low as possible to maintain proper leech and foot tension.  A short shackle on the forward tang/eye should do it.  I might just use some Amsteel line (1/8 dyneema--supports over 2,000lbs!)here to keep the distance as low as possible. Then a super short snap shackle for the reefing points. The hook looks way too tall to keep leech tension when reefed.  By this I mean you want everything pretty tight in strong winds (when reefed) and raising the new clew when reefed of the boom is going to loosen the luff leech.

Edit/crossed out- sorry about that.

Going to think about this a bit

Really appreciate your thoughts on this, as well as the detective work Shawn.

[Shawn]

Salty,

"I'm thinking the clew needs to be as low as possible to maintain proper leech and foot tension."

If you are loose footed is that going to matter? Won't the tension really be set more by the outhaul and vang?

"The hook looks way too tall to keep leech tension when reefed.  By this I mean you want everything pretty tight in strong winds (when reefed) and raising the new clew when reefed of the boom is going to loosen the luff. "

Humm... if you aren't going to use the big loop I wonder if you could just cut out a small section of it near the base as a gate to use the rest of the loop as the hook. Not sure how much of an issue this would be though, couldn't you compensate with the boom downhaul?

Shawn

[Salty19]

Sorry I misspoke a bit..or rather didn't get my point across too well.   Happens often.     Getting my luffs and leeches backwards--so I fixed my post.

You're right, the vang will keep overall leech tension correct. The outhaul is most effective adjusting the foot, leech tension isn't changed too much as the direction of pull is 90 degrees off. The leech needs the downward pull the vang gives for better upwind performance. I shouldn't have said the it affects the foot..slipped it in there by mistake.  

But if the clew is higher than the tack-which is what would occur with a taller clew attachment point, to keep luff tension correct (similar to of the clew was lower) you need the rear portion of the boom to sit lower than the front (ie pulling vang down more to lower the boom), by the same distance the clew and tack are spaced, for the leech to set correctly.  Does that make sense, the triangle would be "off" with tight luff and foot and loose leach if the boom were kept at the same position.

The sail foot should be "level" and "horizontal", or close to it, parallel to the boom across it's length, reefed or not.  Actually that is a good sign your sail is gone..if the boom hangs down in the cockpit at an angle.

At 6'2" the boom clears the noggin, but not much room to spare so having a lower boom is not an option for me.  Wouldn't work with a bimini either.  Not that we have one, but someday.

Anyway, this thing has me intrigued.

[Shawn]

Salty,

"At 6'2" the boom clears the noggin, but not much room to spare so having a lower boom is not an option for me.  Wouldn't work with a bimini either.  Not that we have one, but someday. "

I don't know how much of a difference there is in mounting height between the slide and my arrangement but with my setup it does work with a bimini but just barely. Of course this is on a 23, don't know what it would be like on a 19. I have the boom downhaul set so the gooseneck is right below the opening in the sail slot. I can *just* hoist all sail that way but to tension the luff better I need to use the cunningham cringle in the sail. I'm going to rig up either a 2:1 using my old reefing cleats at the front of the boom or a 3:1 and add a V cleat to the mast.

Shawn

[Salty19]

Well, I slapped together the concept I'm thinking of for the combination boom slug, outhaul attachment and reefing shackle.
It ain't pretty..required some trimming of plastic on the slug and steel on the shackle base, but it works.

Caveot:  I've only tested this once yesterday and the winds were very light (so light even with the 170% drifter we only made 1 knot).  Very little strain was present and reefing was only an exercise to see if the shackles would work (they do).  However I've used the slug in the past so don't expect anything to break.

Luckily I had all the parts already (don't we all have that box of unused parts!!?) , so this prototype was easy to make. Time will tell if it's strong enough and if reefing is easy. I'll attach some small lines to the reefing grommets to haul down the main during reefing, and will tie up the main (unreefed) clew to the boom so the sail won't get out of control when unschackling.  If this all works out...no more reefing lines and a nice adustable foot when reefing!

Went ahead and repurposed a 3:1 block setup with integral cam cleat that I had planned to use for a downhaul, but didn't get around to finishing it up. And the line is long enough..what luck!

Notched shackle


Clean, no aft reefing lines


Out haul with cam cleat and reefing shackle



Ideally the clew of the sail should be closer to the boom.  I noticed sail rite has stainless slugs..one could cut off the base of the shackle I'm using and weld it to a steel slug to bring the clew lower.