pros and cons of loose footed main?

[shamblin]

Sailors,

I saw a Youtube video of C23 Hideaway sailing with the main sail disconnected from the boom except where it was fastened to the outhaul at the end of the boom.
Having sailed a Potter with such a loose footed main ( and a boat with no boom at all on the mainsail),  it seems that almost any Compac could operate the mainsail loose footed ( maybe even the catboats).  What would be the pros and cons?  The video said Hideaway sailed better to windward loose footed? But, no doubt there are problems or it would be more common.

[MacGyver]

I am glad you asked this, will be interesting to hear the thoughts.
I have been reading more about this topic lately on the internet, but havent found the "right" in for for myself to understand it all.
I found some info pointing to the sail shape?  but nothing on the actual gains....

Mac

[capt_nemo]

I think it is generally accepted that you can achieve better mainsail shape (control) with a loose footed main as opposed to one attached along the foot to the boom. Consequently, boat performance would improve with the better sail shape for a given set of conditions. I've made and used a loose footed main on my homemade 12' sailboat and really like the way it performs. A few Owners of gaff headed Sun Cats have changed to a NEW Loose Footed Main and reports are quite favorable.

Also, based on what I've heard, the loose footed main is cut a little differently than one that is attached to the boom. An experienced sailmaker could (should) clarify this question. If not critical, a few of us could try "uncoupling" our main'sl foot and see what happens!

The outhaul control for the loose footed main should (must) be stronger and have more mechanical advantage because it must overcome far more force on the sail which was otherwise distributed along the boom length with bolt rope or sail slugs.

Just my two cents worth.


capt_nemo

[HideAway]

I attended a seminar put on by one of our club members, Bruce Bingham of Flickr fame.   Bruce brought his boat to the dock and demonstrated how the loose footed main, his had a shelf, worked and how he can reef his 28 Cape Dory in 25 seconds.  I decided to give both a try. 

The loose footed main completely changed how HideAway sails.  In moderate air there is no weather helm when the main is adjusted properly.   As the wind increases over 15 the weather helm returns but it is not as bad as it used to be, by then its time to reef anyway.  5 kn is easy to maintain. Our self steering device originally installed to take the brunt of the weather helm - it did not steer the boat - can now steer for long periods of time with no correction.  off the wind it is a dream.  We haven t had to fly the genny in two years -  really - its not been necessary.

I added a three part tackle and ran the lines up to the cabin area opposite the reefing line.  You need every bit of the tackle to handle the adjustments.  We have a very old and much patched main sail that will be replaced soon.  I have no hesitation to order a loose footed main with shelf.   

Recently we were sailing in a strong gusty sea breeze and badly needed a rest.  I decided to try heaving to -  That is really sweet - as long as you have sea room you can leave the boat unattended - its great.   We can reef in under a minute standing in the cabin on a board across the bunks.    I made two videos of the loose foot the second is called Sailing the Third of the Fourth on the Sailing HideAway uTube site below.    Matt

[Shawn]

"I think it is generally accepted that you can achieve better mainsail shape (control) with a loose footed main as opposed to one attached along the foot to the boom. "

There seem to be two differences there. First, you can put quite a bit more belly into the sail when it is loose footed as you don't have a bolt rope bunching up in the track. Second, the shape of the sail holds the entire length of the sail. Typically with a bolt rope the sail is always flattening out at the bottom.

"the loose footed main is cut a little differently than one that is attached to the boom."

I haven't compared the original sail to my loose foot sail but going from memory the cut does seem a little different around the base of the sail. Pretty sure even with the outhaul tensioned there is a foot in the sail that drops down the boom some. I will double check that next time I'm on the boat.

BTW, not at all an expert on this... I flew the old sail loose footed all last season until my new main came in. I've only used the new main a few times so far so I'm still learning it.

Shawn

[Shawn]

Matt,

"I added a three part tackle and ran the lines up to the cabin area opposite the reefing line.  You need every bit of the tackle to handle the adjustments."

Did you change it from your video? The way it is rigged in the video you are only getting a 2:1 mechanical advantage, only 2 lines pulling on the sail. To get a 3:1 you could put a double block at the end of the boom and a single block w/becket on the sail or just tie off the line to the clew itself. 

I rigged up a 6:1 on mine. It is likely overkill but it makes it easy to pull the outhaul in in higher winds. A harken 22mm triple block with becket is on the boom and a harken 22mm triple is on the car/track.

 

This year it is also part of the reefing setup which means when the outhaul is tightened all the way there is a lot of line at the cleat. I hang it with a velcro loop around the boom.



I haven't been out in really light air with the track setup yet so I don't know if it will slide on its own. The system I was using last year had a slug in the boom and it needed a little help sliding forward in light air conditions due to the friction in the blocks and on the slug.

Shawn

[shamblin]

Thank you all.

Matt, or someone, please explain the reference to "a shelf" in Matt's response above.

Bill in NC .

[CaptRon28]

The "shelf" on a bolt rope main sail foot refers to the extra material sewn into the sail (down near the foot) which allows the rest of the lower portion of the sail to move sideways a drop to hold a better shape for certain (usually light air) wind conditions. Depending on the amount of material added, it can almost look like a "shelf". It tends to give it some of the loose foot properties. Since most mains have some added sail cloth there, they are not really suitable for use as loose footed sails as is - there is too much material there to form the correct shape. You can re-cut it to remove some cloth, or start fresh with a pattern that will allow the loose foot to work. Many loose footed mains also have extra cloth added vertically to reduce the size of the open slot between the boom and sails foot. As an example - the foot on my trimarans loose foot kevlar main comes down to the bottom of the boom, thereby eliminating the slot altogether.

Also note that most of the force acting on the main is taken by the tack and clew - the middle of the foot handles substantially less force.

[skip1930]

Con...loose is not factory. The factory way already exceeds hull speed.
And with a lose footed main, you'll need a vertical batton at just the right spot on the 'foil'.
Like a Penquin that was designed by the famous boat designer Philip Rhodes.

skip.

[Greene]

After reading a bit on the advantages we ordered a new loose footed mainsail for Wrinkles 4 weeks ago.  We should have it in about one more week.  It will be interesting to try it out.  I believe the PO was already sailing our 23 loose footed even though the mainsail had a bolt rope design.  They had a 4:1 outhaul set up which will work great on the new loose footed main.  We have added a cam cleat to the boom for this adjustment as well.  We will still have the regular cleat available for high wind days when we want the outhaul really secured.

We will be sailing Thursday - Sunday in Door County and we will try the old mainsail loose footed just for fun. 

Mike and B

[HideAway]

Shawn -  I thought I had a 3 part in the final set up - I ll have to look - memory being what it is - The set up works for me - I would say any thing less than 2 part is too hard - an yes I think 6 part is over kill - too much stuff on the boom for me.   Your idea for the velco loop is a good one.

Ron28 - That is a great explanation.  I also heard the shelf helps keep the air from falling off the sail thus keeping the air moving over the sail. 
When I asked Bruce about it he had to admit the effect was probably not great but then he was in stiff competition for the 2010 boat of the year in west Florida.  He won his division.   Bruce is a perfectionist - He admitted to sealing the gap between the rudder and hull so as not to disturb the water flow.   He also mentioned he thought a screen door would be as effective as my stock rudder.  He did not mean it in a bad way - Bruce has had a long association with Compac - he designed the hull of the Eclipse for instance.

Bob23 comment in another post about the difference between his blown out  sail and the new one - excessive heeling for the wind - has gotton me motivated to get a new sail.   M

[Shawn]

"too much stuff on the boom for me."

On the flip side it lets me get rid of both reefing lines on the back of the sail and running the length of the boom. No chafe and they aren't dangling down  every time I raise/lower the sail. For me that is a good tradeoff.

I think you will really like the new sail. Bob is right about the difference from old to new sail. Still heels with puffs but seems to be quite a bit less than before and that is with just the new main in my case. Still have the old jibs.

Shawn

[Salty19]

Shawn, I like the track idea with aft reefing hook.  I've only put one reefing line in (haven't needed the second reef in the stable 19 yet) but always looking for a better way and really do want that second reef better prepared. I'm not one to not go out sailing just because the wind is blowing hard!

I wonder if a machine shop could turn out a small piece of hardware that would act as a slug, reef/clew hook and outhaul eye in one compact piece.  Nice and clean. Might just look into that...would anyone else be interested if I find a place--could be a lot cheaper per unit if they make several.

I really like our loose footed main too.  Using a 3:1 outhaul on our 19..seems to be a good match (effort required when the wind is strong, easy most of the time) and it's not bulky.

The velcro on Shawn's clew is probably how National delivered the sail, that's how mine came and it seems to work quite well.

Terrible pic, but an idea of how bulky the 3:1 outhaul looks...

[Shawn]

"I wonder if a machine shop could turn out a small piece of hardware that would act as a slug, reef/clew hook and outhaul eye in one compact piece.  Nice and clean. "

I had been looking for something like that before I put the track in. After I got the track in the local marine consignment place got in a number of longer SS slugs with an outhaul eye. They look like they could work similar to what I am doing with the track. Next time I'm down there I can see how much they cost if you like. As I recall they were $20ish or so.

"Using a 3:1 outhaul on our 19..seems to be a good match (effort required when the wind is strong, easy most of the time) and it's not bulky."

Isn't that a 2:1? You start the line at the rear block, it goes forward to the sail (1 line) through a block on the sail and then back to the block on the boom (2 lines). After the line comes out of the block on the boom it is just changing directions not adding mechanical advantage to the load. You only get mechanical advantage for the number of lines on the pulley moving with the load, in this case the sail.

Shawn

[Salty19]

Shawn--You're probably right...I always thought that was a 3:1 (3 legs) but you're right..it goes through 2 blocks only. If a 2:1 only used 2 blocks, well, it's definitely a 2:1. So if I put a small double block aft and the existing aft block with spliced line on the clew, ran the line aft, then forward then aft then to the cleat that would be 3:1..I could do that with an extra block laying around, but there may not be enough line to do it.  Come to think of it, if I used this as the reefing hook instead of jiffy, that line would be too short for the second reef too.  Hmmpph..spliced New England Euro double braid ain't cheap!

Learned something new about the blocks..thank you for that.

As for the SS eye with outhaul..yes I'm interested. Would love a pic if you can snap one! Having a reefing hook back there would great!