Newbie needs advice desparately

[Rick Evans]

Captains, could I pick your collective brains in asking for some honest advice?  I've been sailing over 50 years, crossed the Gulf Of Mexico, hold a 50 ton Captains license and so on.  But I know zip about gaff rigged cat boats.  During the summer I sail on an inland lake known for strong and frequently gusty winds.  My small but heavily ballasted sloop rigged sailboat handles those waters easily because I can sail on jib alone, or mainsail alone, or some combination of both because they are both quickly reefed without leaving the tiller.  But the cockpit is small and the ComPac Sun Cat Day Sailer seems beautiful to my eye.  The expanse of cockpit looks large enough for a lacrosse team.  But, knowing nothing about the cat rig, I'm concerned.  Is it easily overpowered?  When the wind kicks up, is it easily and quickly reefed?   Is is just one reef or can I put in two for 30 knot winds?  Does she still sail well with the reef(s)?  Is she easily capsized and, if so, can she be righted by one person?  Is she relatively dry compared to the Sun Cat with the mini-cabin?  Do you get substantially more cockpit room without the mini-cabin? 

I know.  Lots of questions and I apologize but my ignorance is profound and your collective wisdom huge.  Would sure appreciate your input.

Rick

[cavie]

Can't answer for the daysailer, I have the cabin. I don't reef untill abot 15-18 knots. You can spill off air with the gaff halyard. Don't scandlize, just spill some air. I have one reef and that is enough. Reefing is done from the cockpit. No cabin crawling for me. I can fit 4 adults in the cockpit. Don't know way you would need to sail with mor than that. I don't believe any experianced sailer would dump either boat. the daysailer would be a wet boat over 10 knots winds. I can hide behind the cabin and still get wet. Use the porta pottty too.

[capt_nemo]

Rick,

I too have thousands of cruising miles under my keels (including offshore passages), an inactive Captains license, and have owned seven sailboats, one of which I built from scratch with a Gaff Rig. Now I'm the proud owner of a Com-Pac Sun Cat with large cabin. I say large cabin because there is a Sunday Cat version of the Sun Cat that has a small mini cabin up forward (for Porta Potty and stowage).

I'll try to answer your questions in the order asked and as best I can. I'm sure other owners will probably chime in as well.

First "Is it easily overpowered?" Short answer, NO! The Sun Cat Rig was purposefully designed to be somewhat underpowered. Only 150 sq. ft. of sail for a boat that displaces 1500 pounds, UNLOADED. It handles winds comfortably up to around 20 knots at which time, if not before, a prudent sailor should tie in a reef. This makes boat performance in light air rather poor.

"Is it easily and quickly reefed?" As it currently comes from the factory, NO. Primarily because the stainless horn welded on the boom gooseneck doesn't work well to engage and secure the reef tack, and it requires one to go forward to the mast to engage it. Most of us have modified the reef tack like the reef clew at boom's end - line secured to boom led up through the cringle then to a cheek turning block and back along the boom to an easily reachable cleat. Thus modified, YES it is easily and quickly reefed.

"Is it just one reef or can I put in two?" My 2010 Sun Cat came from the factory with a single set of reef points in the Mainsail. You could have another set sewn in. It is jokingly said among Sun Cat owners that when you have the mainsail all the way up at full hoist you automatically have the "First" reef tied in!

"Does she still sail well with the reef (s)?" The boat does sail OK with a reef tied in, but with the reduced sail area and wide beam doesn't seem to have the ability to punch through a steep chop without losing quite a bit of momentum. You'll miss the additional drive provided by a small jib unless like me you add jibs to your Sun Cat for both light and heavy air sailing.

With regard to "capsized" and "righted" I don't know of a Sun Cat ever capsizing - can't help you there.

"Is she dry compared to the mini cabin?" - can't help you there. My Sun Cat large cabin cockpit is pretty dry unless heavy winds blow spray back.

"...more cockpit room without the mini cabin?" Daysailer compared to Sunday Cat mini cabin - don't really know. Daysailer compared to Sun Cat large cabin - definitely YES! I considered the Sunday Cat for the advantage of a sheltered semi-private place for Potty and some protected storage area, with large cockpit remaining, but decided on the large cabin version. Have never regretted the decision.

Here is Sun Cat "Frisky" with homemade light air Drifter.

[gato chateau]

Rick,

I'm a relative newbie also having taken delivery of my Sun Cat last year.  I did however manage to get more than 50 sails in during the season.  I move my boat around a lot (have a slip in PA and upstate NY on Cayuga Lake).  I agree that the boat handles well with the first (true) reef in winds over 15 knots.  I also agree that it  is not a lot of fun in light air and for this reason a sailmaker is presently making me a small jib on Captain Nemo's design (thanks Capt Nemo).  Putting in the reef is a bit of a pain when singlehanded for reasons noted below.  Again, thanks to Captain Nemo for sharing solution.  I'll add that to the boat during its Spring overhaul.

Overall it's a terrific boat.  Feels like a much bigger boat than its 17 feet.  Last summer I sailed mine off the Jersey Shore and in large lakes Upstate NY (Cayuga and Lake George).  My wife and I Island camped off her for a week and were very happy with sleeping in the cabin and enjoying our morning coffee under the bimini in a light rain.  To give you a sense of how attached we've become to her in a relatively short period of time we have decided to keep her after taking delivery of a Cape Dory 25D as the Sun Cat gives us outstanding mobility a trailer sailer that rigs in less than 15 minutes offers.  As we're each working full time still this is critical as we plan vacations on water distant from where our Cape Dory will be docked.

Good luck with your search.  The only other boat I seriously considered was the Norseboat 21.5.  It's a beauty and possible to row if your outboard fails you but at $45K (it went into production last year so I doubt you'll find a pre-owned) too much for me to lay out.

[skip1930]

There is a very good reason why East Coast fishmen used gaff rigged catboats.
They worked just fine, were safe and easy to handle.

The only thing that puts me off about the CP-Sun Cat or other CP-Cat boats is that darn folding mast system. Mast-Tender thingy.
I have never seen one work except at the All Sail Boat Show in Chicago at Navy Pier.
I here things sometimes have been stuck going up and down the mast.

I will say that I had the CP-19 out in a stiff breeze with really tall rollers and another sailor had his CP-Picinc Cat out in the same breeze.
No problems detected with the CP-Picnic Cat. Both captains were having a ball.

skip.

[capt_nemo]

Skip,

The hinged mast system on the Sun Cats is the greatest thing since sliced bread! The Mast-Tender system works very efficiently once you fully understand how it operates. Nevertheless, like most mechanical designs with some close tolerances, it also has the capability to sometimes get the boom gooseneck "stuck" going up or down in the track in way of the hinge mechanism. However, this situation can be avoided with practice and development of a trouble free technique of raising and lowering the Main'sl.

The hinged mast system and quick rigging capability was one of the primary reasons for my decision to purchase a great trailer sailer.

capt_nemo

[cavie]

Folding mast is why I own a Suncat!  It does get stuck coming down not up. That's what a %$#&*))^"gaft downhall" is for. The new block system on the Sunday Cat does not interst me. The day I can't put the Suncat mast up is the day I quit sailing.

[sjaffess]

I have the Daysailor version of the Suncat and it is the perfect boat for a lake or in open water. I rarely get any water coming in to the cockpit.  It is easy to reef and sails well on a reef in 15-20 kts.  The cockpit is enormous and gives you a lot of room to move around, but I wouldn't take more than 4 people.  It is a very easy boat to trailer although I keep my boat on a mooring and only trailer it twice a year. I have an electric motor that gets me back if the wind dies. I had a Harpoon that only weighed 500 lbs and bought a Suncat for the stability. It is almost impossible to knock it over.  It is not very fast and does not point as well as other boats, but is very easy to sail yourself and it is a very comfortable boat. Forget racing unless you are racing against other Suncats.  My only complaint is that is not great in light winds. I have an O'day 27 in Cape Cod , but that is a whole different animal. You will love the Suncat, unless you are looking for speed. `Enjoy

[Rick Evans]

Captains,

I really appreciate each of you taking the time to help me better understand this boat.  As with all vessels, each has their pros and cons, especially depending on what you want to do with it.  But you've answered my questions about sailing with a cat rigged boat.  Sounds like a very stable and very easy boat to sail.  After decades of fooling around with jib sails, I can't imagine how nice it must be to just tack and not have to re-sheet a jib.  Especially when you have inexperienced sailors on board and have no clue what to do.  Thanks again and fair winds.

Rick

[Tom Ray]

One small correction: one person has managed to capsize (or at least knock over) a Sun Cat. The tale is on the catboat forum over on trailersailor.com. I'm pretty sure it was Dick H.

Short version: got sideways to wind with cleated main and a gust hit. Over she went. The surprising part is, the boat floated fairly high on one side, with the companionway well above waterline. It took a bit of water through the closed hatch. The other surprising part is, it did not turtle. I guess that keel is good for something. He had to get to the centerboard, then just righted it like any other little boat.

Before I read that story, I would have sworn that it would take a breaking wave to capsize a Sun Cat. As noted, it is underpowered. The original drawings by Clark Mills show 160 sq ft of sail, not 150, and no ballasted keel at all. Big difference.

If you get a Sun Cat, please bring it down for the next Sun Cat Nationals, to be held whenever I set a date. Sometime next November, or maybe late October.

[bfelton]

Dick Herman did not turn over a Sun Cat, but he did turn over a Picnic Cat on San Francisco Bay.  After the incident, he traded her in on a Sun Cat, hull # 20 and sails the boat every where.

Bert Felton

[capt_nemo]

Bert,

Thanks much for the clarification. There is quite a difference between a Picnic Cat and a Sun Cat in my mind's eye!

And, page two (2) of the Sun Cat Brochure at com-pacyachts.com does in fact specify the sail area as 150 sq. ft. and displacement at 1500 lbs..

capt_nemo
Sun Cat "Frisky"

[Tom Ray]

Actually, I think he did both. I know he turtled his Picnic Cat and I think it was Dick who got blown over in a Sun Cat. Someone did. Now I may have to go search the archives over there to figure out who it was!

[pwright]

My Suncat has only one set of reefing points. I do not find it all that difficult to reef and the boat sails well reefed. However, in a 25 + knot wind, one reef is not enough and the only other options is to "scandalize" the sail by lowering the peak of the gaff. It looks like hell but spills a lot of wind. I have been out on one occasion when even this was not enough and the only way I could get safely home upwind was to lower the sail and turn on the outboard. In this respect, a marconi rig offers more options as you can sail under jib alone.

Any sailboat involves trade offs. There are times when I would want better up wind or light air performance or to sail under jib alone. Another drawback to the suncat is that the rig is not high enough for a six footer like me to sit comfortably under the bimini  or see the sail from under the bimini.  However, the stability, seaworthiness, high freeboard, enclosed cockpit that allows the passengers to get out of the weather and the shallow draft are definite plusses. For folks that periodically beach their boats, like I do, the shallow draft is a major advantage over, say, the Sage 17. That draws 1 ft 9in board up vs 1 ft 2 for the suncat. I suspect that 7 inches could make a world of difference when anchored just off the beach on a barrier island on a falling tide, or in how the boat would cant over if left high and dry.

I am hoping that some day the hutchins folks will offer the option of a bow sprint and jib. I think the hull would take it easily and suspect that the issue is the additional  strain that might place on the hinged mast. I would be fine with a fixed mast if I could have the bowsprint and jib. Google Cornish Crabber 17 for a very attractive similarly sized gaff rigged boat with a bowsprint and jib. Unfortunately it is British built and more expensive.

[capt_nemo]

pwright,

Strongly agree with all your pluses mentioned for the Sun Cat.         

I have taken certain steps to address the very issues that you cite as shortcomings with the Rig. I've discussed and shared my results with Gerry at the Factory.

First, I added a homemade 38 sq ft light air Nylon Drifter which dramatically improved the boat's light air performance. (I also made a heavier jib but it didn't fit or work right.) Here is a photo of it at work. Got to be careful tacking through the tiny foretriangle. Notice the simple trick in the photo to avoid fouling the sheets in crossover?



Second, I made a homemade Nylon Mainsail which keeps me sailing in very light air when others under "bare poles" have resorted to their "iron gennys"!



Third, I made a homemade 4' bowsprit to provide a platform on which to experiment and play with various headsails. (Better too long than too short.) I added ADDITIONAL masthead shrouds, another quick release masthead forestay, a chain bobstay, and a pair of whisker stays, all rigging homemade. The original quick release forestay was retained to act as a baby stay (out of the way) for the larger foretriangle area or reattached to original stemhead fitting if, God forbid, one wishes to play with a double headsail rig! I too believe in jibs (headsails) both small and large, heavy and lightweight, to provide the necessary drive the boat needs under various conditions. Here is a photo of the Bowsprit.



The Bowsprit was purposely designed and installed without drilling a single hole in the boat or removing any original hardware. The boat can be returned to "Factory Condition" with about 1 1/2 hours disassembly time!

I'm currently designing and obtaining material for a medium weight club footed self -tending jib and a larger masthead lightweight Drifter. Eventually I'll be able to report how my Sun Cat sails with headsails and main together as well as under headsails alone in various wind and sea state conditions. Stay tuned.

capt_nemo
Sun Cat "Frisky"