jib dilema

[gabi]

hi guys

when i bought my compac16 1 i came with a big genoa no jib
i bought a used jib from craiglist for 35 $ just so i can sail during the windy season here at lake lanier
the problem is that the jib fluters really bad during high winds, i must be really worn out or something, it has battens but no leach line,and it seams to fit fine

i was thinking to recondition the sail and i called the sail loft here localy.the guy said they will charge 75$ per hr for the work
now at that price wouldnt i  be better to just get a new sail?i've seen some for around 285
i dont know what it would take to redo the old one ,but im thinking maibe a couple of hr of work? it could easily get in the same price range as a new sail

thats my dilema,
what do you guys think
thanks, gabriel

[deisher6]

Hey Gabriel:
If your C16 came with a genoa track you might try sheeting the jib further forward.  This would place more tension on the leech and slow down the fluttering.  If you had have ready thought of that I would buy a new jib.

Our daughters just bought us a new suit  of "OEM" sails.  The new jib is much smaller than what I thought was the original. Take care in ordering.




regards charlie

[gabi]

thanks Charlie

no.. i dont have the genoa traks ...would be nice..

if you dont mind me asking, are you gonna sale your old jib? i could be interested

[deisher6]

Hey Gabriel:
The old jib is in pretty rough shape.  I could not hold my head up and sell it to a sailor.  At the last of the season i took a good look at it while it was set into the sun...I was surprised that some of the seams had not let go.

I would like to replace it with a slightly larger jib, if I do I would give you the jib for postage.  I will be in touch

regards charlie

[Salty19]

Gabriel,

Good question.  Do you sink more $ into old sails or use that for new sails?   

What you want to look for is sail material that has been stretched out.   If the material has been stretched, it's not going to perform better after reconditioning.  If it's not stretched but maybe has a tear or loose threading, it can be repaired.

Lay it out on flat ground.  Does it lie flat without large wrinkles?  If not, it's stretched out.  Similar to deishers' pictures (see how baggy it is).  If it does lie flat and doesn't look too baggy, it's probably serviceable.

While in use if the curve of the sail is an even arc shape with the apex of the arc in the middle, it's worn out and is causing leeway and excess heeling (ie should be replaced).  If the arc is shaped more like a wing (apex is forward of the middle section) the sail is still good.

Deisher..wow the luff is really different.  Any chance your daughter ordered one for a CP16/II (and you have a version I).   The version II has 7/8ths rigging whereas the original version has 3/4.  A difference of a foot or so.  Either that or your original sail was not so original after all.

[deisher6]

The Daughters ordered sails for a C16 III which has the 7/8 rig. 

Any ideas on where to find the specs. 

The new suit of sails has less than 95 sqft.  The C16 III brochure claims 120 sqft.

I found an old thread but it had a disclaimer on the measurements.

Thanks for your comments.

regards charlie

[Salty19]

Specs are here:

http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=1093.0

If the sails are too small, send them back.  They look to be National Sails...Dirk will treat you right.

[gabi]

thats funny because i feel like my sails are too big, with the genoa im definately overpowered this time of year, but i fell the main is too big too,

[Salty19]

Gabi, your boat is a version I.  No bowsprit and 3/4 rigged.

[gabi]

Charlie,
thank you for the offer,

[JTMeissner]

Gabi, I bought new sails from Super Sailmakers, and while I haven't laid them out like Charlie, I believe them to be pretty much exactly the same as far as size goes.  Even though called a jib, the normal sails are about 110-115% of the "true" jib size.  The site has different sails for each version of the 16, and when I called they made sure I ordered the right kind.

The picture below shows my original sails.  You can see how "tired" the main is due to the sag in the boom.  Although I have a new jib too, I have rarely used it as I seem to have the opposite problem and usually am flying the old genoa.



A couple of thoughts.  Where is the flutter bad, leech, foot, or luff?  For the luff, maybe tighten the forestay and/or the halyard to keep it tight (does the flutter get worse on a particular point of sail?).  For the foot and leech flutter, the sheets will make a difference.  Do your cam cleats slip, so even if pulled tight, the sheets eventually work themselves loose?  Are you sheeting inside or outside the stays (I run inside for the jib, outside for the genoa)?  Try to lengthen/shorten the lead to the tack which will change some of the angles for the sheets through the cleats.

Final thought, what's your comfort level with the amount of lean in the boat?  Having found myself in 20+ knots of wind before (thank you weather forecast), the upwind tacks to get home were a tad uncomfortable.  Overpowered due to no reefs in the main (dumb on my part), I was consistently pointed too high and stalling the jib (weather helm for sure), or getting all she could and burying the rail.  The Admiral wasn't too happy with that, so I had to ease the point, spill more from the sails, and accept the longer zig-zag home.

-Justin

[gabi]

Justin, thank you

the flutter happens mostly on a closed hauled, and its at the leach. The sail doesnt have a leach line,and it has two sort battens.

i went out yesterday and the flutter was so bad at times that it was literaly vibrating the whole boat like a little diesel engine.

the cleats definately dont slip,and i tried both sheeting inside the stays and outside, makes not much difference. The angle of the sheet trough the cleat does make a difference,because when i press down on the sheet coming from the clew to the cleat the flutter  almost sops completly, but it would have be almost vertical from the clew to the cleat.I was thinking to mount a block at the turnbuckles and run the sheet trough it.Not sure its a good idea though.
prob the best would be to add a leach line,

as far as getting a new jib, i found this site http://americansail.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30&Itemid=34 ,American Sail that has a jib at 39 sq ft
i know the original parts list has the jib at 43 sq ft ,so that would make it 90 %.

now for the confort level... i only had the boat since november. I sail on lake lanier, and this winter was very windy 15,20 mph frequently. That would probably fine if it was constant wind,but  most of the time is really gusty and changing direction all the time. Add to that the lake being very low and all this little islands poping out everywhere, i would rather be underpowerd that overpowerd.

[deisher6]

Wow!  Great responses.
Gabe it looks as if the foot of your main is longer than mine, comparing the amount of boom extending past the clew.

Dirk, from national sails shipped what our daughters ordered, a set of standard sails for a C16 III, so I cannot really complain.  There seems to be no good source for just what standard is.  If I were to order sails again I would specify the measurements.

I do not want to hit the lake with a smaller jib than I have, so I am checking out a genoa from National, that is just slightly larger than my old jib.  I have to sell the idea to the Admiral who seems to be gathering what my thoughts might be, and questioning why I would need three sails.

Justin, interesting on how your mast aligns with the boat docked behind yours!  Your jib looks about the same as mine.  I do not want to go with a smaller jib because of weather helm.  When the wind kicks up I reef the main, then douse the jib, then motor in that order.  With a smaller jib I would fly it after reefing the main.

Note that there is a 12 inch extension on the jib tack.  It seemed to improve the slot and main performance as well as clear the pulpit.



regards charlie

[wes]

Charlie - might be worth asking Dirk if he'd take back your jib in exchange. If it's for a standard 16 and no sail numbers, he might. I'll bet they sell a lot of CP 16 sails. A very helpful and reasonable guy in my experience. Bought new sails from him last spring for my 19 and I was very pleased with their service.

Boy, that pulpit can be a pain with chafing the jib. This weekend I am installing a 4" stay extender plate below my CDI furler to raise the foot of the jib to solve this problem. If I had anticipated it, I would have ordered the new jib from Dirk with a shorter luff.
live and learn. The pulpit sure gives Bella that big boat look, though. Most (non Compac) sailors think she is longer than 19'.

Wes

[capt_nemo]

Hey Guys,

Read an article by Lin & Larry Pardy years ago entitled "Reef Don't Buy". In it they described the advantages, cost and efficiency primarily, in reefing a jib instead of changing to a smaller one when the wind pipes up.

I had reef points sewn into a 110% Lapper on my Catalina 25 many years ago. When overpowered, I'd tie a reef in the main first, followed by a reef in the jib.

I remember clearly to this day sailing on the upper Chesapeake with my beloved first mate when the wind kicked up a bit. It was either drop sail and motor back or tie in some reefs and see what happens. Well, the boat settled back on her lines with far less weather helm and we thoroughly enjoyed sailing comfortably in the heavy winds with spray from the bow finding its way back to the cockpit to moisten the faces of a smiling crew!

capt_nemo