Furling Genoa Size

[cycle]

Just finished our 1rst season of sailing our 19 - its been a lot of fun and very humbling.  The things I thought would be fairly easy, like docking & launching in wind & current, for example, have been the most difficult.  A seasonal high point was being followed by a ferry as I struggled to get out of it's way while the pilot shouted on the loudspeaker 'WHERE ARE YOU GOING?"  Somehow we made it through the season without actually contacting any other boats.  I can't say the same about docks - we overnighted a few times and it's taken me the better part of the season (and a new 5hp Honda) to learn to gracefully approach without connecting.  Luckily, capable dockhands and bumpers prevented any damage.  While years of windsurfing help me with the 'sail' part of sailing - the ONLY part I understood was the wind, leaving a fair amount to learn.

So thanks to all of you who post here.  Most everything I've needed to know about the 19 has been from this forum by lurking around for a year and a half while I got my act together, I've gathered equipment, repaired fiberglass, modified my trailer and learned a whiole bunch of other things I can't always remember.  I don't think I could have made it without reading all your postings. 

Anyway, I'm looking at new sails and thinking while I'm at it to get a (FF2) roller furling.  I've read a few things that say you can't really furl much more than 30-35% because the sail shape becomes so poor as to render the sail ineffective.  I'd like a fairly usable range if possible.  I suspect that normal conditions play a part in the decision, but I don't think I know enough yet to judge what conditions here in Casco Bay, Maine are relative to other places.  (Yesterday was 15-25 with gusts to 40 and I was too chicken to hoist the jib - we went with the main only and it was very manageable.)

What are your thoughts on whether to get a 150 versus a 135?  (No bowsprit - Napoli is circa 1982)

Jon
York, ME

[jthatcher]

hi Jon,
  nice pic!   i don't have the answer to your question.  in fact, i am contemplating the same thing.   I have a 1983  cp23 ( also no bowsprit), and this was our first season.   The jib needs to be replaced sooner rather than later, and I just talked to a friend on saturday evening about the advisability of keeping the roller furling headsail.   she thought that i was nuts for evening contemplating returning to a hank on jib.   guess that settles that part of my  question!    But now, I am wondering about the appropriate size..

we are in northeast PA, but sail on the jersey coast.   however,  i just got back from a weekend in NH, where this conversation took place.   I love the coast of Maine, and hope to bring the boat up there at some point.   which ferry did you converse with this summer ?   that is an interesting story!   It would be great to hear more about your experiences..   take care,  jt

[cycle]

Thanks jt - Where in NH?  We're only 7 miles from Portsmouth and we go to Philly quite a bit to visit our daughter.  You must have to go at least as far south as Trenton to get to the shore?

On the ferry - I'm not proud of it, but it was pretty funny.  

When we were deciding where to sail for our first season, we chose Casco Bay specifically because it's a protected area.  I wasn't comfortable sailing in open ocean, which is what the coast of Maine south of Portland (where we live) is.  The downside of Casco Bay / Portland is that it's a busy port with tankers, barges, cruise ships, fishing, ferry & recreational boats. There are a lot of islands and most, but apparently not all, use the same ferry company that use a bright yellow paint scheme.    

So that day, a weekend in the summer, I was keeping out of the channel because there was a gigantic oil tanker coming along that I wished to avoid.  We were sailing north next to House Island which is privately owned.  They do Lobster Bakes and tours of the island (it has some old military forts on it)  When I saw the pale green Chippewa coming up on our stern, I thought it was just a harbor tour.  As it seemed to be following us closely, I turned toward the shore of House Island to get out of it's way.  The Chippewa followed.  I soon noticed that I was heading directly for the dock of House Island and the Chippewa was still directly astern - and now close enough that I could see it's captain as he shouted "WHERE ARE YOU GOING?" over the PA.  I again turned north and he went by, glaring at us and no doubt cursing me.  It was kind of like when you meet someone at a door and you both move the same way, then you both move the opposite way, blocking each other with each move - only in slow motion. I doubt that I'll make that mistake with the Chippewa again.  I guess thats what they mean by 'local knowledge' right?

[jthatcher]

hi jon,
   we have the boat on barnegat bay  in Toms River NJ.   that is about a 3 hour drive from here.   I was in the plymouth nh area this past weekend, but i used to live in wolfeboro.    i had a friend who owned a person 28 and we sailed on winnipesaukee.   Another friend had a compac 27 on the lake, and that was my introduction to compac boats..   i wish that i could have picked that one up when he sold it, but i do enjoy the simplicity of a smaller boat. 

we love portsmouth..  i jump at any opportunity to take a trip back to new england, and portsmouth is a favorite destination.   we were just talking about the kittery trading post...  my son picked up a pair of heavy wool pants at a flea market for me that were from the trading post..  that is always a fun stop. 

and, i have been taking two trips a year up to chewonkin in wiscasset  for a number of years.. one for a community service trip and another to bring students up to camp..   love maine!    how often to you get to philly?    is your boat put away for the season?   we pulled the boat out in september.   do you have more pics to post?    that was a great story about the ferry - one you will chuckle about for quite a while!   jt

[Salty19]

Hi Cycle..Welcome to the forum BTW...

Your asking what we all ask..what sail will work best for ME? 

Tough question to answer.  But here's my thoughts mixed with some advice from Dirk at National Sail.

One sail will not do it all.  A useable range as you said...absolutely, just define the range and make sure the sailmaker understands your needs.    But since the range you sail in will define the type of sail you need, if one day is 5mph and next 30, one headsail will not do it all..or better said will perform badly and will wear out quickly (and possibly get blown out altogether).

Size is important, but fabric weight is important too.  Too light and it will be stressed in high winds. Too heavy and it will sail poorly in light wind.
You are correct about the 30-35% rule of roller reefing. Luft foam will help keep the shape. But there is a limit. I've only had the Harken OOAL furler (which is both a furled and a reefer) on our 19 this season, but found if I reef much..even 30% or so, I loose several degrees of hauling close to the wind. And when gusts hit with a furled 3oz 140%, it will tend to round up more easily than if I had no or a small amount of furl using a 110% 5 oz jib. This is not a big problem though..you will learn to react and keep from happening.  I imagine, but don't know, a stock rudder would be more difficult to manage too.

So a light weight genoa will be great at 10mph or less but will be a liability in 25.  From my experience on lakes only, my 140% 3 oz genny works great for light air up to maybe 10-11mph. It's still safe but a little overpowered.  At 15mph give or take, it's definitely been furled in a bit. Control is OK if you aren't close hauled (foiled rudder too) but the light cloth won't last terribly long using it this way. And headway up wind is compromised. At this point, I should have the 110% 5oz jib up.  Twice I switched out the genny for jib on the water because the conditions changed enough to warrant it.  But this process is not any fun at all with waves (lifejacket and tether time).  I make a decision to hoist one or other based on the conditions that day.  I don't know how hard the CDI is to change sails.  The harken is fairly straight forward, even converted the head and tack points on the furled to quick disconnect snap shackles, so it doesn't take too long.

IMO match to the bad conditions and accept less speed in good conditions (like a 5 or 6oz 110% jib) or go with two headsails. 

[cycle]

@jt - I learned to windsurf in Wolfboro - beautiful place.  It was exciting on the windsurfer when the Mt. Washinton came in - I guess I have a long history of avoiding large vessels!   We go to Philly about once every 2 months or so.  It's a great city, although we've been caught in some not so nice places a few times.  The boat had to be out of the marina by Oct 17 so we pulled it home last Sunday.    

@Salty - Thanks for your thoughts.  Particularly the info on sailcloth weight.  I'm going to take a shot at a 135% 4.4 oz - down from the 150 I was originally thinking of.  My thinking is that without the bowsprit, my 19 has a fair amount less sail area than the newer ones - the 135% should give me a fairly decent shape down to 100% or so.  I'm not a huge fan of very light air sailing, so I'll either choose good sailing days or fire up the outboard.  And if the choice is a complete bust...  I guess I'll get another sail!

Jon

[Salty19]

9 sq ft more with the bowsprit according the factory specs. 

That sail sounds good but be aware if it's blowing hard, you'll be reefed and will not be able haul as closely as unfurled.
Then again, putting a second reef in the main and furling less would work too.  Of course keep a close hand on the sheet, again if it's blowing hard.

For up to 15mph or so, that sounds like a good fit!

[skip1930]

Cycle says  " I've read a few things that say you can't really furl much more than 30-35% because the sail shape becomes so poor as to render the sail ineffective.  I'd like a fairly usable range if possible.  I suspect that normal conditions play a part in the decision, but I don't think I know enough yet to judge ..."

Well 155% headsail, it's either all out or nothing. The Harken furler on the CP-19 is a '0-0' unit.

Tried for five years to put the rail under with out weather helming into a curve...I 'railed under' on just this 155% sail hung out on a bow sprit.
There was a post by a sailor in Small Craft Advisor's site saying that the CP-19's top-o-mast was only 10 foot off the water in Alaska with a big blow rolling down off a mountain. Think about that...

Here is a pic of the fun we had that day. Main sail is tied to the boom.

skip.

My crew that day. Sister-in-law [ deceased by her own hand ]. She's in for a surprise! Wind: Brisk. Temp: Snappily cool.

[cycle]

@skip

At my present skill level , there's no danger of me attempting, intentionally, to put any rail under water. 

Looks like you had a fun day.  I would like to have been there for the ride (as crew or baggage only).   ...and sorry about your sister in law.

Jon

[skip1930]

When the wind filled that 155% lapper with no main out we both had our feet up on the opposite side of the cockpit settee practically standing vertical and laughing so hard we got dizzy.

Thanks...skip.

[brackish]

@jthatcher and cycle..the furler is essential for me at this stage of the game because I can singlehand or sail with inexperienced crew much easier.  If I had ample crew all the time, I would prefer hank on for the ease of changing headsails and the relative performance difference.  I bought a 5.3 oz. 135 with foam luff after considering a 150 or 155.  The advice I got was that you could use it reefed to about 100% in heavy weather conditions without changing to a smaller headsail, a difficult thing to do with a furler.  I can use it fully deployed in light to moderate conditions and for most points of sail, I don't think I miss the extra area that much.  I also got an asymmetrical to use in light air conditions from a beam reach to a run.  My advice, as you can afford it, 135 foam luff furler with a cloth weight appropriate for the square footage and your conditions, a whisker pole sized to get the most out of it down wind, and a .75 oz. asymmetrical.  Listed in recommended chronological order of purchase, and in my case most used.

I sail year round, and keep the 135 on most of the year.  I change to a 110 for winter and early spring.  I also leave a single reef in the main for this period of time because more often than not I need it or it will make the sail more comfortable.

[jthatcher]

great info brack...    thanks for helping to prioritize the decision making for the purchase of a new sail.   not sure about john, but i happen to do a fair amount of single handing, so i guess i will stick with the roller furling.  the 135  makes sense for that application. 

lucky you!  get to sail year round     jt

[Salty19]

Hi Brack,

Good info.  I'm curious, and others may want to know, how hard is it and what steps do you take to change headsails?  
I seem to recall you have a CDI.

On the Harken, it's not much more difficult than a hank on (on a CP19).

The steps to lower sail are:  Loosen sheets/bring sheets to foredeck, Loosen jib halyard a little bit, unsnap the snap shackle at the tack/remove tack from shackle, release the halyard all the way (sail slides down #6 luff slot on it's own), unsnap snap shackle at the head, remove from head and fold up the sail.  Reverse steps to install:  Place upper luff in track, attach head, raise sail while feeding luff in track, attach foot, rig sheets.  Done.  Note the stock harken furler uses standard "D" shackles...of which the pin is just asking to be dropped overboard, so I put in snap shackles to make it quicker and no risk of loosing pins.

Most the work is keeping your feet off the sail and the sheets from tangling or falling overboard.

I leave the jib halyard a little loose at the dock to keep the sail from stretching too much.  I just tighten it prior to unfurling, then give it a little more when unfurled.

Swapping out sails takes 6-7 minutes, maybe a bit more if you forget something, have to untangle sheets or make an extra effort to fold up the sail as neatly as possible (I usually fold it as best I can, then shove it in the vberth.  


I'm considering adding a 170% flying (wire luff) drifter next year for those really light wind days.  That way I can leave the sails furled and just hoist the drifter.  We'll see...spent way too much on the boat this year so it may wait. I don't think a spinnaker would work too well for me..the lake is narrow and tacks are frequent.

[brackish]

Good info.  I'm curious, and others may want to know, how hard is it and what steps do you take to change headsails?  
I seem to recall you have a CDI

The CDI has a dedicated halyard internal to the foil extrusion, so you don't use your boats jib halyard.  To change sails you have to untie the halyard from the shackle on the drum, tie a messenger line on that end equal to the luff dimension, untie the tack line from the other shackle on the drum, pull the sail down out of the the foil extrusion, untie the halyard from the head and retie to the new sail, raise the new sail, remove the messenger line and tie off the halyard, then  tension the tack with a small, strong multi part line as you tie it off to the shackle.  That is how it is set up and what the book recommends.  I've been experimenting with spectra and dyneema climbing runners for the tack line, but haven't come up with a good way to tension using the halyard which is decored at that point and doesn't offer much leverage with most of it in the foil extrusion.

twenty minutes give or take to do the change.

CDI has an instruction book with pictures online if my description wasn't clear.

Process is OK at the dock, but i don't want to do it on a pitching foredeck.  You're right, stepping on the lines and sail or having it fall over the rail is the biggest problem.

[Salty19]

Yes, that's clear. Thanks, Brack!   Sounds like the CDI is a little more time to swap sails, but not much, really. I probably underestimated the time it takes me to swap sails...I bet it takes 10-12 minutes.

Oddly enough I can do a lot quicker without crew.  The admiral is a great wife, but when it comes to rigging, hmm..how do I say this.."leaves something to be desired".  I admit I get impatient though...a character flaw of mine.  After 3 or 4 times showing her how to do something..on the 5th time I'm frazzled and tensions can run high.