SELF STEERING VANE FOR 23'S.

[Bob23]

   I know we may have touched on this subject before but I'll throw it out again. I'd like to install some kind of self steering vane on "Koinonia" and would prefer not to use an auto helm although I admit I may need do.
   Have any of you 23-ers's out there any info on self steering vanes on a boat with a transom hung rudder? Or am I just complicating my life. I'd like to do some ocean sailing here in NJ next summer which will entail sailing through the night. Since I sail solo most of the time I need a third hand to steer.
   Thanks in advance, mates.
Bob23

[brackish]

Hey, I understand the concept, long cruises with a low power use option for self steering, but I have to admit the best purchase I've made since I've had my 23 is the Raymarine ST-1000.  I single hand a lot because I'm retired and can pick my weather, more often than not going out mid week when no one can go with me.  I absolutely could not do that without the auto tiller.  I set it as soon as I leave the dock and can put up sails or change sails with ease.  once i get the sails set for a run up lake, I can stop and eat lunch before taking over the helm.  On return, I have to go up about a mile finger from the main lake to the marina and set it for that run while I make the boat ship shape before I dock, then step off and go. When I'm at the helm I just set it for "standby" and it waits until I need it again. 

So no help with your question, just another point of view. 

[Bob23]

Brack:
   That's big help. I'm hoping to avoid a tiller pilot but for the sake of simplicity, may have to go that route. Is your ST1000 noisy? A friend has an old Autohelm (named Otto) and it makes alot of annoying noise.
   This summer I'm gonna try a primitive method using bungee, line and some knotwork. I saw a short ariticle in a recent "Good Old Boat" magazine and it looked like it would work. I think Newt here has some kind of self steering rig on his 23.
   Thanks again,
Bob23

[Shawn]

Bob,

I doubt you would want to go with a full wind vane setup ($$$$$$) but you might want to consider one of the sheet to tiller arrangements. They look interesting if you are the only one in the cockpit and don't mind lines running here there and everywhere. Those will compensate for wind shifts but of course change course when doing so.

On the flip side I also gotta agree with Brackish on the auto-pilot. I have a ST-2000+ in mine and it is very nice to have on board. Makes staying on course easy and allows for easy sail changes or reefing. It can operate in a few different manors depending upon what you want out of it. In its most basic setup you give it a heading and it will keep you on that heading. No additional hardware required. This keeps your heading but doesn't adjust for cross track error (leeway drift) so you may not be on the course you want to be. When used in this mode if the wind shifts it trys to keep your heading the same. So in gusty uneven wind this can be a bit of a challenge if you want the boat to head up in the puffs... the autopilot will fight that. You can also tweak your heading or tell the autopilot to tack the boat and it will tack through 100 degrees leaving you free to handle the sheets.

If you have a GPS that can put out NMEA data you can feed a point or track to the autopilot and it will steer to that point and make turns at waypoints with prompting the user confirming the turn. If the GPS puts out cross track error the autopilot will use that to compensate for the drift to stay on track. Again this mode won't compensate for wind shifts.

The last mode is if you have a wind instrument that puts out the proper NMEA data. In the wind track mode you set your course based on the wind. So for example you set it so that the wind is at 90 degrees relative to the boat. If the wind shifts the autopilot will adjust to keep the wind at 90 degrees.

I use the first option most of all but do have my Garmin wired in as well and have used it on occasion.

I'd love the last option but *most* wind instruments that put out the proper NMEA data is very expensive. NASA has a unit that puts out the NMEA data for $300ish but the data it puts out is in the wrong format for the auto-pilot. I build a hardware box that if I wrote some custom software should be able to convert this though so I am considering that unit for the future.

One other fluky thing... with my old Johnson the autopilot worked fine and this was great for raising lowering sails. You point into the wind and tell the autopilot to hold that heading. That leaves you free to deal with the sails and the autopilot will keep the bow into the wind. Likewise heading into port it could steer while I flaked sails or put out fenders or whatever.

However, for whatever reason the Tohatsu drives the autopilot nuts. It resets constantly when the Tohatsu is running... even if the Tohatsu isn't electrically connected to the boat. I am going to try some noise filters on the electrical connections to the autopilot to see if that helps any. Don't know if it is something there or if the Tohatsu is futzing with the fluxgate compass in the autopilot.

I went with the ST-2000+ over the ST-1000 as the drive mechanism is quicker (more responsive) and is supposed to be a little quieter and more efficient for less draw when steering.

Shawn

[brackish]

Brack:
  That's big help. I'm hoping to avoid a tiller pilot but for the sake of simplicity, may have to go that route. Is your ST1000 noisy? A friend has an old Autohelm (named Otto) and it makes alot of annoying noise.
  This summer I'm gonna try a primitive method using bungee, line and some knotwork. I saw a short ariticle in a recent "Good Old Boat" magazine and it looked like it would work. I think Newt here has some kind of self steering rig on his 23.
  Thanks again,
Bob23

It makes some noise, but not much.  If on a run with very light winds, I can hear it when it corrects.  If on a beam reach with reasonable wind, I can't hear it, and of course I can't hear it over the motor.

As Shawn mentioned it can be integrated in a number of ways. On my boat I have it tied to my GPS chartplotter, however, I've never used that option.  I mostly just use it as a third hand to allow me to do things that need to be done away from the helm.  I'm going to play with it in the future to do tacks because I think it would help, give me more time to properly set the headsail.  I have a tendency to under tack and head back up and through when the helm is left free while I'm setting the headsail.

The best price I've ever seen is Ultimate Passage.  If you get serious about it post and we can walk you through the installation, tell you which tiller bracket and push rod extensions will work with a 23 and the best positioning for the pivot socket and options for the power socket.  I also made a drawing of the tiller bracket in case you want to make your own.  Did this so I can make another for my spare tiller.

I think Newt has a boom to tiller arrangement that works well, I've seen some pictures of it on past posts.

[curtisv]

Bob,

I've considered both the ST1000+ and the wind self steering option.

I haven't tried the sheet to tiller but I have sailed considerable distances with the tiller tamer and with the tiller lashed to the stern pulpit in strong wind where the tiller tamer would slip too often.  This only works to windward.

I've been told that the ST1000+ or ST2000+ can steer a CP23 in the worst of conditions, which is when you need it most.  The down side may be that the power draw goes up and at 5A max, you may find your NAV lights are getting dim on a long night sail in rough weather and then your self steering gives up as the battery gets too low.  Of course that can be solved with a big honking battery (got that covered with an 8D, 255 AH).

The wind self steering is the ultimate in coolness but at a high cost.  Really good self steering that consumes no power.  Great.  The cost.  Real steep.  It would fit on a CP23 transom.  Some can be mounted off center and work just fine.  Some mount better on center and have kits to go around the transom hung rudder.  The sailomat http://www.sailomat.com/ may be the most reasonably priced.  Most other brands are nearly $4,000.

Curtis

[Bob23]

Thanks, Curtis:
   It seems that the ST-2000 and a larger, maybe second battery is the simplist and cheapest way to go. The balance of the budget will go toward new sails.
   In other news, I'm gonna relocate the battery more forward for a few reasons. One, obvious reason is my on going attempt to balance the boat. Second would be to provide a bit more room in the starboard locker for more stuff which would further unbalance the boat. Ah, the things we do for love!
Bob23

[Shawn]

Curtis,

Where did you see the 5a number? The specs say 1.5amp.

I haven't measured draw but at least in reasonable conditions that seems about right. After 3 or 4 hours of using it during the day I didn't see much, if any, voltage drop as my 40w solar panel was keeping up. If the ST-2000 was pulling 5a I should have seen more drop. Draw will of course depend upon conditions, how well balanced the boat is and what method you are using the tillerpilot. When it is on a GPS track going to wind it makes many small corrections to eliminate XTC so draw will be higher.

For long use at night one would want to limit any other draw. My interior lighting was 5-6 amps before moving to LED, now if both reading lights and the lights above the sink and stove are on it is just under 0.5 amps. Nav lights are 2-3 amps, with LEDs that will be about 0.2 amps.

Shawn

[brackish]

Power draw has not been an issue for me to date, however, most of my tiller pilot use has been when motoring out and rigging, or motoring in and making the boat ready for dock.  I do, however, leave on it standby mode the whole time I'm out if single handling, and let it take over when I need to get or do something.

I have two group 24 batteries that are original equipment so they are pushing six years old and still functioning very well (thank you Curtis V. for convincing the original owner to install a very good battery charger) as they stay on controlled charge at dockside.  One of them is only used for starting and I've never had to use both on a cruise to power everything else. Longest cruise being four days without charging other than minimal motor use. I'm hoping the addition of pressure water used sparingly will not change that.

Shawn, when you went to LED's did you change fixtures or replace bulbs with LED's?  I plan to add a couple of lights, one over the stove/chart table and a couple of night vision on the vertical panels below the main cabin berths, and would like to change the existing cabin lights to LED

[Shawn]

I changed bulbs out. I have brass reading lights on the bulkhead over the quarter berths. On those I put in Scad Sensibulbs, those were the first I changed.

For the lights over the sink and stove I put in Bebi Rinorino Katakata ($34 for 2) in the existing fixtures similar to this:

http://www.bebi-electronics.com/bug.html

I have the Lulu Kaukaua for an anchor light.

For navigation lights I am going to use a Warm White Masina Afa Vevela for the bow light and the Pure White Masina Kuaka for the stern light. Those just need to be installed.

Shawn

[BobK]

My cabin lights use 1141 bulbs.  I bought 2 led 1141 - 36 bulb replacements off ebay (hong kong) for $8.86 for the pair with free shipping.  They are not quite as bright as  the 1141's but don't use any where as much electricity. 
I used them all last season (probably 40 over nights) without a problem.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-36-LED-Warm-Light-Bulb-BA15-S-1141-1156-Car-RV-Boat-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem414fdf30d5QQitemZ280512901333QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

BobK

[Shawn]

Bob,

Those LEDs are probably fine for interior but you might not want to use them in navigation lighting. The inexpensive LED lights built for cars assumes a constant voltage supply so they use a dropping resistor. When running under just a battery as your battery voltage drops the lights will dim down. LEDs that use voltage regulators will hold their lighting constant as the battery voltage drops.

Shawn

[BobK]

Interior only - I understand.  I read that white LED's are too bright to use in the red green lights.  A combination red green bulb built for this application needs to be used.  The white led is so bright it makes it hard to distinguish the red and green colors (almost fades them out when looking at them).   This brings up the question on if they will pass the coast guard inspection.

[Shawn]

"I read that white LED's are too bright to use in the red green lights."

The problem I have read about is the white LEDs color temperature is too different from incandescent so the green ends up looking blue. The warm white LEDs take care of this as detailed here:

http://www.bebi-electronics.com/specs.html#color

Shawn

[curtisv]

Thanks, Curtis:
   It seems that the ST-2000 and a larger, maybe second battery is the simplist and cheapest way to go. The balance of the budget will go toward new sails.
   In other news, I'm gonna relocate the battery more forward for a few reasons. One, obvious reason is my on going attempt to balance the boat. Second would be to provide a bit more room in the starboard locker for more stuff which would further unbalance the boat. Ah, the things we do for love!
Bob23

Bob,

Sound like a practical plan. 

Shawn,

On the 5A number I don't know where I got that from.  I just checked http://www.raymarine.com/ProductDetail.aspx?SITE=1&SECTION=2&PAGE=87&PRODUCT=194 and the manual is available there.  The power draw spec on page 4 says 0.5-1.5A depending on conditions.  It may be that the worst case power draw has gone down a lot over the years.  I think there were discussions of the older ones drawing up to 5A when trying to steer in foul weather.  Or maybe I'm just plain wrong?  Its happened before.

I remember once sailing alongside a much larger vessel not quite down wind and not quite down waves and hearing the autopilot on that boat straining.  I was hand steering and surfing down the waves and keeping up with a much larger boat because I was taking advantage of the waves and the autopilot on the other boat was trying to fight them to keep a constant heading.  The waves were only about 4 feet.  I can imagine that for waves a lot larger the autopilot is straining quite a bit.  Anyway that was probably an older unit.

Maybe the tiny elves that live inside the control unit are now smart enough to figure out the cycle of the wave and do less work.  Amazing what those elves can do.

Curtis