Trailer straps for CP 19?

[ssullivan]

im like 99.9% sure it is in Florida, the only reason im not 100% is because i haven't actually found the law on the web, but i believe better safe than sorry imho 

[JLaman]

I have traveled both ways -- with and without the safety strap.  After hitting a few potholes without the strap and watching the boat bounce around on the trailer, I never leave home without it.  It takes me an extra 2 minutes at the launch -- cheap insurance.  Plus, I have been told by fairly reliable sources that boats (and other loads like motorcycles, mowers, etc.) must be secured in a particular way according to law. 

[brackish]

I have traveled both ways -- with and without the safety strap.  After hitting a few potholes without the strap and watching the boat bounce around on the trailer, I never leave home without it.  It takes me an extra 2 minutes at the launch -- cheap insurance.  Plus, I have been told by fairly reliable sources that boats (and other loads like motorcycles, mowers, etc.) must be secured in a particular way according to law. 

wish someone could show me that law, I've never seen it nor have i ever seen or heard of anyone pulled over because of an unsecured load.  I've towed about 1500 miles without any straps.  The center of gravity is very low on the boat with the ballast lower than then bunk surface.  My view is that if you ever get enough G forces to overcome that resistant load, then whole trailer is going over and a strap isn't going to do a bit of good.

[JLaman]

Well, for me, it's not the legal part that matters so much.  I suspect that a law of this sort only gets enforced when something falls off a trailer or truck and does some damage.  What does matter, and I have watched my own boat, is when the hull lifts off the bunk.  G forces and dynamics work in 3 dimensions, and the rocking mode will get the boat in motion on a sprung trailer with little damping (no shocks) in ways that can't necessarily be predicted.  I've never been in an accident, don't plan to be, but I wear still wear my seat belt to the grocery store!

[CaptRon28]

I don't believe we're actually having a conversation about strapping the boat to the trailer. Other than moving the boat across the driveway, it's absolutely a no brainer.

Concerning legality - check out this Boat/US site on trailer laws -  http://www.boatus.com/Trailerclub/trailering_laws.asp.  I think every state has a check mark next to the Tiedown question (although a few are marked "NA").

Long haul truckers learn quickly about strapping down heavy loads. I don't care how heavy or light the boat is and how deep it's in the cradle. It's going to move around at speed, especially during emergency maneuvers or hard braking.  What did you say - you never brake that hard or have to change lanes quickly?  Tell that to the idiot who cuts you off and then slams on his brakes.

The following is also from Boat/US -  http://www.boatus.com/trailerclub/boat_trailer_walk_around.asp. Did you know that you HAVE to cross the chains? That's also required in most states.  I can't find the article now, but Boat/US had some nice pictures of a 25 foot sailboat sitting sideways on top of a Jeep Cherokee a few years ago. Truck stopped, trailer and boat did not. It jacknifed and the boat jumped on top of the Jeep.

[brackish]

lot of apples to oranges comparisons being used here:

long haul truckers secure a load on a flat bed or a drop bed.  Either way the center of gravity is normally one half the height of the load and that same dimension from the point of support.  They have to dog the load down or it will roll off at the first opportunity.  My 23 at rest has all the load on the keel support with two points of support (bunks) well above the center of gravity.  When put in motion the live load at the bunks can never be greater than the resistant live load unless a bunk fails.  if that happens a strap is not going to help.

I've watched mine in motion and have never seen it get into a rocking state side to side. It almost can't if the bunks are adjusted properly then the load will always want to wedge into the bunks. I've seen it rock fore and aft and have had concern about hitch connection integrity, but the only thing I can do there is make sure tongue weight is correct and the hitch connection is correct.  Strap wont help here either.

to each their own, it may give a sense of security to strap it, in my view a false sense.  If the law requires it, I may start using one set up so it cannot do more harm than good.

[skip1930]

Wait. If the darn boat falls off the trailer, I have a bigger problem then just straps.
Probably find the whole rig rolled over in the ditch. Don't need the straps then.

"I've seen it rock fore and aft and have had concern about hitch connection integrity, but the only thing I can do there is make sure tongue weight is correct and the hitch connection is correct."

Rocking...the hull bunks are not floor jacked up into good hard contact with the curvature of the hull.
Tongue weight...I moved my trailer axle as far astern as possible to put as much weight on the hitch as possible.

What ever. Each to their own. skip.

[Salty19]

Skip you're missing the point. Straps prevent the boat from sliding off in the first place. Bunks can and do fail.  You tow just a few miles but many including myself log hundreds of miles a year exploring new areas. No way would I tow without them,or stop at least hourly to check them. Also hitch weight...I seem to recall you were using 10% of your entire rig weight as the tongue weight. That's way, way too much. Should be using boat + trailer + boat gear in boat times .10 for tongue weight. Roughly 270 lbs for a cp19

[CaptRon28]

Salty -

We may read about these guys in a couple of years, or maybe see the video on YouTube. It's absolutely insane (and ILLEGAL) to tow a significant distance at highway speeds without tie-down straps. If I can find that Boat/US article with the sail boat on top of the Jeep Cherokee I'll post it. Or we can wait for another photo-op. By the way, I recall that the insurance claim on this Jeep/sailboat mishap was reduced somewhat because of owner negligence.

I've been towing trailers for many years (open and enclosed car and boat trailers) and there is absolutely no way that I would not tie down a significant load. Momentum will get you in the end.

10 percent of total trailer weight on the tongue is at the upper end of what is considered "safe". I'd be shooting for 8 maybe. Under 6 is too low.

[brackish]

Salty -

We may read about these guys in a couple of years, or maybe see the video on YouTube. It's absolutely insane (and ILLEGAL) to tow a significant distance at highway speeds without tie-down straps. If I can find that Boat/US article with the sail boat on top of the Jeep Cherokee I'll post it. Or we can wait for another photo-op. By the way, I recall that the insurance claim on this Jeep/sailboat mishap was reduced somewhat because of owner negligence.

I've been towing trailers for many years (open and enclosed car and boat trailers) and there is absolutely no way that I would not tie down a significant load. Momentum will get you in the end.

10 percent of total trailer weight on the tongue is at the upper end of what is considered "safe". I'd be shooting for 8 maybe. Under 6 is too low. 

The law in Mississippi says NA for tie downs and is one of the few states that requires brakes on a 2000# load.  I will guarantee that 95% of the trailers in the state between 2000 and 3000# do not have brakes.  I've yet to hear of any case where an insurance claim was lowered as a result of "negligence" when that part of the "law" is not followed.  My Insurance friends concur.  When they accept the policy they pay the claim.  I've heard that said about everything.  For instance, there are people who swear that if you do your own wiring, according to code, but without a licensed electrician, you void your insurance.  Pure poppycock.

You have a static load, a force moment of 3000# all vertical down.  You have two lateral supports that are approximately 25% above the centroid or center of gravity.  When you put that in motion the center of gravity doesn't change.  The live load force diagram will show a lateral force on cornering or dropping in a hole that cannot overcome the resistance of the bunk or become greater than the vertical down force if keel guides are in place and the bunks are up.  Now true, you can put one set of wheels in a straight drop ditch on a poorly banked turn in which case the whole thing goes over and a strap does nothing.  Or a bunk can fail and the boat goes over and just slides in the strap. 

If it makes you feel more secure, great, I just don't think it does anything on my 23.  On a boat with the center of gravity ABOVE all points of support, straps will provide necessary support, but not the way mine is set up.  On the other hand I'm a huge fan of cleaning, adjusting and testing my brakes,  a safety chain on the bow, properly crossed and attached safety chains between the trailer and the tow bar, and a properly installed break away cable on the brakes, and a tow vehicle that has both the tow capacity and the gross combined for the job with a minimum of 20% excess.

To avoid any confrontations with the "law" in other states, I'll probably rig a strap for show, but I don't have any illusions that it will do anything in a true catastrophic situation.

[JLaman]

Well, crap happens is all the more I'm going to say!  I bet this guy is glad his boat stayed on the trailer!

http://www.offshoreonly.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=219

And this parting note, from www.boat-ed.com (runs boating safety courses in all 50 states as far as I can tell):

Before Leaving Home

Secure the vessel on the trailer and the gear within the vessel.

    * Secure all gear in the vessel firmly to keep it from shifting. Arrange the gear so that its weight is balanced side-to-side and front-to-back.
    * Secure the vessel to the trailer with several tie-down straps and/or safety lines to prevent the vessel from shifting. Use extra tie-down straps in case one fails. Never trust the bow winch alone to hold your vessel onto the trailer.
    * Put the engine or drive unit in the raised position and secure it.
    * Attach the safety chains between the trailer and the towing vehicle, crisscrossing them under the trailer tongue.

Travel safely this summer!

[Salty19]

Capt...you're right 10% is the max.  I am not exactly sure what % I am but there is zero sway--flat, uphills and down so best not to change a thing. Certainly way more than I can lift, which would be more than 200lbs.

Brack-problem with towing is like a nuke plant. One thing wrong may not hurt. But add two or three issues and you have big problems.  Ex:  bunks fail, sharp maneuver and no straps.

[CaptRon28]

Salty -

Use a bathroom scale, perhaps as part of a balance beam, to measure the actual tongue weight. Below is a setup that will measure about 900 pounds (using a 225 pound scale with a 4 to 1 setup on the 2x4 beam. The 6500 pounds of Telstar and trailer is setup for around 520 pounds on the tongue. That includes the weight of 4 heavy duty ratchet STRAPS. Note the Equalizer weight distributing hitch with sway control. That will probably be flagged as another unneccessary gizmo. Trailer has 4 wheel ventilated disc brakes as well. Added them about 2 years ago. I've been doing this too long to fool around with my life. The thing pulls like a freight train on tracks and stops about 25 percent shorter than before. I use the same hitch on the 4200 pounds of Horizon/trailer for longer tows.

[brackish]

I would never suggest that anyone set up their load to be towed in any manner other than what they would be comfortable with.  However, it was suggested that my particular position with regard to the value of straps or tie downs might be the result of significant mental impairment.  Why there was even anticipation of a future video produced, I'm sure, as a submission for consideration of a Darwin award.  While I find this mildly amusing, I'm disturbed that no one specifically challenged the engineering basis for my position.  Am I wrong with regard to the live load force diagram description?  Maybe so, but I do have some knowledge of such things.  Not directly relevant, but prior to setting up my boat to tow, this is the last thing I had to set up for towing:



Built by NATCO, part of Combustion Engineering's Oil and Gas division in Gulfport, MS, I was the load engineer.  Sold to Amoco, and delivered off the coast of Trinidad, quite intact I might add, I suspect it is still producing oil and gas today.  The loadout was made much more difficult because it was the first full platform the company built and it was the proverbial "boat in the basement".  The thing was mostly built by the time the final weight was calculated.  There are actually two platforms on the barge, each weighing just over 1000 tons and our building (water actually came inside the building 225 feet) only had 400 tons of bridge crane capacity.  But we figured out a way and off it went.

I kept that picture on my office wall for the rest of my career, even after changing industries, so that whenever faced with a seemingly impossible task, I could draw inspiration from it.

BTW, I'm convinced to add some type of strap, not because I think it will have any positive effect, but to avoid any confrontation with any individual who might want to enforce a law that was not specifically developed for my particular setup but enacted to cover every possibility.

[CaptRon28]

I think inertia and momentum are the real issues here, especially when braking, along with centrifugal forces when changing direction at higher speeds. A significant portion of a substantial mass is sitting above the cradles, and that mass will definitely resist any attempt to change it's direction or speed. A sudden deceleration or change in direction could shift the load. Hitting a bump or depression in the road surface during one of these manuevers will only worsen the situation.

I don't think anyone suggested that those who don't use straps are mentally deficient. I may have used the expression "no brainer" and I apologize if it was taken the wrong way. My intention was that it was an easy decicsion for me to make. You definitely have the right (at least in some states) to not strap the boat down.