Is it safe to sail a leaking keel?

[ted_h]

I recently bought a 1980 CP16. The keel has some delamination and small holes. I've sailed it several times (more like drifted, there was very little wind) and afterward the keel will weep a pint or two of water on the garage floor. I also noticed a little standing water (maybe an inch) in front of the compression post. There is an access hatch that I can open and look into, right behind the compression post.

My question is: can I safely keep sailing her and repair the fiberglass on the keel later or am I running the risk of taking on too much water?

Thanks,
Ted

[JBC]

Hi Ted,

I'll also be interested in the answers from others, as I have the same year CP16 and it, too, weeps a bit from the keel after sailing.  So far, I've ignored it, but have only sailed for several hours at a time, and so far haven't found any water in the compression post area or cabin floor, yet.  It's clear from what I can see that the keel is in need of some fiberglass work in a few areas that are the main sources of the leaks.  But as I figure there are also some blisters to deal with eventually (the bottom is painted with anti-fouling paint), I'm putting repairs off awhile unless I hear dire warnings from any who have had similar experiences with bad consequences.

My wife has a bit more concern than I have about the issue, however, so I may have to get to this quicker than I had planned!

[jpfx]

Some things that come to mind...
I would worry about this if it becomes worse or if there's any possibility of a freeze which would likely cause serious damage. It's something that would need addressing at some point... if kept in a garage then you're not obliged to do anything before winter.
Blisters hold water and it'll drain off. A few ounces of water can look like an awful lot on a garage floor.
There is the possibility that water is getting through to the concrete keel and saturating it.
Water can come through the seam between topsides and the hull. You could dry out the insides and then run a hose over the boat to see if that's occurring.
Water pooling around the compression post is intriguing. On my mkI this is not the lowest part of the hull which is more or less directly under the companionway hatch. The boat is sitting level on the trailer?
What condition is the wood framing for the bunks. It there's a long term leaking problem; these should've rotted through many years ago.
Examine the hull inside and out for possible badly repaired damage covered with paint. I thought I had a poor repair but it turned out to be sagging paint.

[ted_h]

I think it is a little worse than blisters because I can tap on the sides of the keel and cause some water to dribble out.
I'm not sure about the source of the water at the compression post either. I do have some bad wood in the cabin. The top of one bunk, the supports under the cockpit footwell, there maybe more. I think the boat was stored indoors for part of its life, so that maybe why the wood is not any worse than it is. I was washing the deck and cockpit last week, so some of the water could have come from a leak on the deck or cockpit.

There doesn't seem to be a path through all of the wood support members in the bottom of the boat for water to travel through to collect at the lowest point. Am I just not seeing them or are there no scuppers (can't remember the proper term)  in the supports?

I plan on working on the keel later in the year after I get some sailing in.

Thanks for the feedback.
Ted

[Billy]

While concrete is not water-proof it will not "rot" either. The longer you wait, the more water that will soak into your keel and increase the weight of the boat. Good thing the weight is down low in the keel where it should be. This may be something you do or do not want. The boat will be more stable, but it will be slower too. I feel these boats are stable enough but definitely not fast enough! Just be aware and when you do get it fixed, you will be enclosing any water that is in the keel forever. So if this is something you do not want dry it out first. MAybe close it up in the garage and run a dehumidifier in the cabing for a few days.

[Craig Weis]

" Is it safe to sail a leaking keel?"

Sure. As long as the bailing bucket is not holed or the manual suction pump works well.
She'll not sail fast enough for a selfbailing trap door in the transom.

Anything to keep her from sinking. My Buddy had a leaking keel on his old sail boat sitting on the can in front of his house for three years, we'd just pump her dry and go sailing...skipper makes the call.

Next time she's on the hard, dry her out with a paint stripping heat gun, mix up some Marine-Tex from West Marine and fill the holes below the waterline and go sailing. It's not structural. But a new drilled hole might be advisable then wait for the water to stop dripping out of the keel and cement. Which is hygroscopic.

That's why I cut and glued on a 6mm aluminum 'KEEL BOOT' to the bottom of my CP-19 so I could turn over the rocks where I sail. And just like it says in the Navy's BLUE JACKET MANUAL it is not possible to stop water from entering a hole from the inside [non-pressure] side of the hole. As British Petroleum [B.P.] has learned in the Gulf. A hole must be plugged from the 'wet' side. Not from inside the hull.

You know, escaping methane gas is what is pushing the crude out of the hole 5,000+ feet under the ocean in the Gulf. Think of the 'plugging' pressure [weight of sub-freezing water] that needs to be overcome to push the crude out. Gas under pressure. That's hard to control considering how heavy 5,000 foot of water is in tons of weight per square inch. How is methane gas to be contained and controlled once it reaches the surface and now no longer under huge amounts of water pressure allowed to expand? No wonder the rig blew-up and sunk. Of course China, Cuba, Vietnam, Brazil, are drilling in the same pocket of oil as B.P. If they have a leak what I Obama going to do? Put a moratorium on them? Hardly!

skip.

[jpfx]

have a look at this thread for some idea of what could be under the paint:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=3433.0
Pushing the blisters causes a little water to seep out. I'll finish paint removal before I start on the blisters. The boat is still sailable; I wouldn't think anything of getting the bits together and getting on the lake, even leaving it tied up for the duration. My inclination is to finish this job though.
This hull sails dry. It was in the water for close to 2 months last season and was still dry inside. The bunk frames are rotted in the same places you mention and I might replace them. A previous owner made templates which rest of top of the bunks out of epoxied plywood. On top of those were the cushions. I removed practically everything at the end of last season.
If I decide to go sailing this season, I'll only put safety gear back in.

[mrb]

Welcome ted_h

If you trailer sail and between sails the drips seem to dry then next time you go sailing water forms on floor and drains or drips onto floor when you get home you definitely are taking on water.  Why not get some of the epoxy that comes in the small tubes ( buy at wall marts or most hardware stores) and try plugging those holes you see in keel.  Mark areas that are dripping or weeping, let dry a few until drips stop then mix epoxy as directed and force into or over holes, smooth and let cure.   Then if you need to, start proper repairs after your sailing season ends. 

You may or may not be in danger of sinking but any thing you can do to slow down leaks is good.

Good drifting better sailing, fair winds to you

Melvin

[ted_h]

Thanks for all the input. Doesn't sound like I'm taking any great risk, but it definitely needs to be attended to.

Thanks again,
Ted

[nies]

The limited experience I've had says be sure and dry out the broken blisters completely before doing anything........Phil

[old-sailor]

I had the same problem last summer with a 1979 16. I had just bought the boat (which had not been in the water for over 3 years) and had just brought it back from working on it at a friends house when I noticed a small puddle under the keel. I then did the unthinkable and drilled a small hole in that area of the keel. About a quart of water ran out. Back to my friends house for more work! My friend is not only a sailor but a skilled machinist and great with fiberglass repairs. This is what he did. First he ground out about a 2" by 3" area surrounding the soft spot and cleaned out the loose concrete. Next he dried the area with a lamp for about a week. Next he mixed up an epoxy filler and filled the area. Then he layed on 4 or 5 layers of fiberglass. Finally he over coated the area with a clear epoxy coating. While probably over kill, I have not had a problem since. How did the water get there when the boat had not been in water for 3 years? I believe that the previous owner left the boat out in the elements for a long time and the water came in from the top. Also a lot of the interior wood was mush. When I bought it, I was looking for a project boat, and I got one!

[ted_h]

Old-Sailor,
Go to hear you sucessfully repaired the keel.

What did you do about the mushy wood?
Ted

[fafnir]

Rule #1 in boating:  Keep the water out.  :-)

[Craig Weis]

"Is but a sliver of plank between a sailor and eternity"

skip.

[rwdsr]

Ted,
I had the mushy wood problem, 5 years in the salt water.  I cut out all the mushy stuff and sistered in 2x3's up to the forepeak, and then relaid new decking.  I didn't want the well in the cabin, so I ran a flat floor all the way across so now I can lay cross ways of the cabin if I want to.  That's just the way I chose to do it.  Click on the picassa site listed here and there are some pics of the inside of the cabin.
BobD