Inadvertant Knockdown

[Al]

According to several articles, one of the key features of the CP16 is its self righting capability & seaworthiness. Fortunately for me, those articles were correct. Last weekend, I had a novice at the helm (not that I'm an expert). He was doing rather well tacking into 10 knot winds with an occasional 15 knot gust. I did notice that he would start on a close reach and end up on a beam reach with the main close hauled. This was not an issue until I spotted ripples on the water indicating higher winds (20 to 25 knot wind gusts leftover from hurricane Alex). I told him to head into the wind. He later told me that he kept the same heading and expected to just go faster. Apparently, he didn't understand my comment on maximum hull speed for a displacement vessel. The next thing I knew we got knocked down and I was flying over the rail. Fortunately I grabbed the rail & keep my head above water. At this point the main was not in the water but water was coming over the rail. I uncleated the jib, but nothing changed. Then I uncleated the main and the boat immediately righted itself and launched me into the cockpit. With its self draining footwell and no cockpit lockers to flood the cabin, the CP16 handled the situation well. Lessons learned: Don't close haul the main on a beam reach. Keep one hand on the main sheet during gusty conditions. The CP16 can be knocked down (but it didn't turtle or sink). I would like to think that the boat would right itself if left unattended, but I didn't want to wait for the results. Did I miss any other lessons?

[Bob23]

Great tale, Al.
   One lesson you may have missed is not to let that guy steer anymore. Glad to hear that your ship righted itself but if water were to enter the cabin in sufficient quantities, she'd go to the bottom. There is no positive floatation in these boats. The same concrete keel that righted your boat would sink her if assisted by enough water in the cabin.
   I think it is a trademark of novices to oversteer when tacking as your friend did. I've seen many folks do it. And, wierdly enough, in light winds the boat seems to move slower when sailed as you descibed- the wind hits the sail almost perpendicularly thus moving the boat sideways somewhat instead of forward. Knowing the compass direction of the wind and using the compass to tack through is helpful. Good thing you spotted the approaching gust!
Bob23

[kickingbug1]

   i have been hit pretty hard at times and rounded up but i havent had the rail in the water or have taken any in the cockpit. i usually cleat off my mainsheet but always have the sheet in had to release it when necessary and i heavy winds i dont cleat it at all. through expierence every sailor learns how his boat (no matter what kind) will react. the helmsmans part it to know how to react to the boat and as you put it be always aware of changing conditions. i never expect to be knocked down but it is nice to know the boat  can survive it. and yes in all but light air, i keep my hatch board in.

[newt]

I had the same kinda thing happen a few years ago in my 23. Teaches you good habits. Makes you trust your boat

[JBC]

I have only sailed my CP16 a few times now, while I continue to fix it up.  But I have a comment to make about Bob23's note that in light air, the boat slides sideways with the wind somewhat abeam.  I've noted this as well, and my boat has a roller furler genoa which, when the sail is completely unfurled, increases this tendency.  In fact, I had to gybe quickly instead of tack one day when I realized I couldn't bring the boat through a full tack in order to avoid being pushed into a lee shore.

I believe I can improve my boat's tacking ability (stock '80 CP16 with standard rudder) by furling the genoa when wind is pushing on the bow, causing the boat to slip sideways some and making it harder to beat into the wind, but I certainly can say the CP16 does behave differently in this regard to just about every other boat I've sailed.  I will add that the current configuration, especially with the larger genoa, gives it a bit of lee helm from a beam reach to close hauled position(until the wind cranks up...then the boat gets more responsive and handles much better!).

I've not knocked down my boat or come close to putting water over the rail, but I'm happy to read here about others' experiences/observations about what can happen.  I bought this boat for its self righting potential (having turtled a few boats in my time), so I look forward to learning more about how this boat handles various wind conditiions as I sail it more.

I agree that sail control with the main is also a key when tacking, that keeping the mainsail tight while falling off on a beam reach is potentially a problem in any stiff breeze.

[kickingbug1]

    a switch to a foiled rudder be it homemade or not is a necessity in my book. i couldnt believe the difference. she never feels out of control, points much better and the rudder never stalls like with the old flat blade. i have found that sailing with the stock working jib that she points much better. that little stripped genoa stays in the garage.

[JBC]

Thanks for the advice.  I've noticed a lot of posts on this site about the rudder upgrade, especially, so I'll consider that change.

[Bob23]

   I have to echo Kick's post here. I sail a 1985 23/2 with original sails. Yeah, they are just ok, but the sort of blown out main does hinder pointing ability. Nonetheless, before I built my foiled rudder, and was using the stock flat plate, tacking was a problem. It always felt that I was just barely completing my tacks. And forget about tacking if I happend to just have the main up- she just refused! Now, I can easily tack through 90 degrees (current permitting) even if only the main is flying. Now I normally don't sail with just the main but a few weeks ago I had my daugher and her landlubbing dog out for a sail and thought it best just to keep things simple.
   I am amazed at how the performance has increased. In my opinion, a foiled rudder is an absolute necessity! Just my $.02.
Bob23
A note on tacking with my 23. To aid in completing the tack, I momentariy backwind the jib to help speed the bow around and through the tack. It works great. I never touch the main sheet when tacking.

[Craig Weis]

So if your sailing in 'big wind', why was ANYTHING cleated down?
Live and learn. Hold the sheet in your hand and play-out and in as the wind demands.
If you don't dump the wind, you'll go rail under or round up and not be in control.
It took me years of trying to submerge my C-P 19 rail in the water, and I did it only on the head sail.

skip.

[newt]

A note on tacking with my 23. To aid in completing the tack, I momentariy backwind the jib to help speed the bow around and through the tack. It works great. I never touch the main sheet when tacking.

Its interesting after being on this forum for a while, I still get little pearls of wisdom. I need to look at that next time I come about. Thanks Bob

[B.Hart]

  Backwind on the jib works to help bring the bow through the wind. I learned it here, probably from Bob THANKS BILL

[Bob23]

   I have to confess...I think I learned it accidentally. When I first got my 23, and was unfamiliar with it, having been a Seapearl sailor, I got the jib sheets all in a tussy while tacking. After doing this a few times, I noticed that as I didn't get the jib over in time, the few seconds it was "on the wrong side" helped bring the bow through the tack. Now that's just the way I do it, only a bit more elegantly.
   Of course, that was all before the foiled rudder age in which I currently live. Now she comes about almost effortlessly.
Bob23...I'm always amazed at what I don't know.

[cdaxj]

Hey great stuff here.  Reminds me of two things - I need to work on my sailing lingo, and I have no idea what I'm doing out there!

Can someone please tell me what a "foiled" rudder is?  Also, what does it mean to backwind the jib?

Thanks friends!
Chad

[cdaxj]

Hey JBC - you have a furling genoa on a CP16?  Hows that done?  Can you share some pics?
Thanks,
Chad

I have only sailed my CP16 a few times now, while I continue to fix it up.  But I have a comment to make about Bob23's note that in light air, the boat slides sideways with the wind somewhat abeam.  I've noted this as well, and my boat has a roller furler genoa which, when the sail is completely unfurled, increases this tendency.  In fact, I had to gybe quickly instead of tack one day when I realized I couldn't bring the boat through a full tack in order to avoid being pushed into a lee shore.

I believe I can improve my boat's tacking ability (stock '80 CP16 with standard rudder) by furling the genoa when wind is pushing on the bow, causing the boat to slip sideways some and making it harder to beat into the wind, but I certainly can say the CP16 does behave differently in this regard to just about every other boat I've sailed.  I will add that the current configuration, especially with the larger genoa, gives it a bit of lee helm from a beam reach to close hauled position(until the wind cranks up...then the boat gets more responsive and handles much better!).

I've not knocked down my boat or come close to putting water over the rail, but I'm happy to read here about others' experiences/observations about what can happen.  I bought this boat for its self righting potential (having turtled a few boats in my time), so I look forward to learning more about how this boat handles various wind conditiions as I sail it more.

I agree that sail control with the main is also a key when tacking, that keeping the mainsail tight while falling off on a beam reach is potentially a problem in any stiff breeze.

[JBC]

Chad,

I'll try to remember to take a couple of pics next time I have the boat rigged.  In the meantime, I'll draw a mental picture.  CDI 1 furler with foil replaces forestay.  I think the genny is 155% or something close to that (installed by the PO), because the clew of the sail laps outside and behind the shrouds about one foot, well behind the mast.

Because the clew is basically right above them, the original cam cleats are useless, so the sheets route back toward the stern to get the proper angle for sail shape.  PO installed fairleads and new cams just in front of rear stern cleats.  Sort of like sailing with a spinnaker arrangement for sheet control.  I'm probably going to install jib rails/cars with a stand-up block to improve sheet handling and adjustments.

I'm still not convinced this arrangement works all that well for the older models (later boats have a bow sprit which makes more sense for the furling arrangement I believe).  In its current position, I think the genny can throw off the balance of the boat.  It's great on a broad reach or run, and sometimes a beam or even a close reach, but it can quickly overpower, unless it's furled some, especially when tacking.

Jett