CP-23 Cutter

[newt]

I know this has been hashed  before, but I am getting ready to redo the standing rigging on my baby, I think she would work well with a removable baby-stay, as well as beefing up the forestay and backstay.  Not to stop there, I am going to make a stays'l.
That way, when the wind picks up, I can reef to a stays'l and about 30% main. Better in my eyes than going to bare poles.
Anybody else ready to turn your little C-P into a cutter ?

[Bob23]

I don't know of anyone but do share your project with us, Newt. It seems you are always up to something interesting!
Bob23

[curtisv]

When I had a 60% jib cut I asked about another stay.  The sailmaker told me that the foretriangle was already so small (on a CP23) that the only thing that would make sense is a wire luff all out storm sail that would be rigged stay and all only when needed, high up and with fixed sheeting points on the cabintop.

Its easier to just have a smaller headsail cut for strong conditions.  If you are a hank-on guy consider Larry Pardy's headsail idea - put a reef in the primary headsail and just gather it at the foot.  Then carry a really small headsail for when even the reef is too much and after that you need an all out storm sail.

Curtis

[newt]

Yeah, I thought about that Curtis. The problem is (I have roller reefing) that when I pull in my jib, the center of effort goes too far out and overpowers the rudder. I need to keep the center of effort close in. A different jib, even if I went to hank on, would just give me a similar problem. I need to keep the effort close to the mast.

[curtisv]

I have a furler too.  I normally fly a 110.  What's your primary headsail size?  What are the typical wind speeds on the GSL?

The CP23 normally has weather helm.  As the wind picks up she tries real hard to head up.  Its worse without the bowsprit on earlier CP23s (so I hear and it makes sense).

The key is to keep the sails balanced without excess heel and without winding more than about 70% of the headsail on the furler so it doesn't lose shape.  Balanced on a CP23 means a little more headsail than mainsail.  You can feel balanced in the tiller (or the other way around, you can feel unbalanced by the force you have to put into the tiller to keep from heading up).

Too big a headsail is one problem.  You can't make a 150 genoa much smaller than a 120 without bad sail shape and a little further and its real bad.  This is not what you want if winds pick up.

I have a 110 so I reef the main first.  I tie in the first reed around 15-18 knots (would be my guess).  Then I roll just a small amount of headsail on the furler.  I might have a 90 jib at the smallest.  This doesn't reduce sail much but its good for probably another 2-3 knots of wind.  Then I tie in the second reef on the main.  That makes for a very small main.  With the larger headsail, area than mainsail area I don't get weather helm.  This is just fine at 25 knots.  If its gusting more than that I head up.  If its sustained over 25 I have to roll up all but a corner of the headsail.  This puts more sail area aft and brings weather helm.  I've only been there in semiprotected water but if I had a ways to go I'd set the 60% jib at that point and get back a balanced rig and great headsail shape.  I figured if I wasn't going to be out long it wasn't worth changing headsails and so far haven't sailed with the 60% jib.

I tried changing furler headsails at about 20 knots once and it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.  Handling the sail that is being taken down and getting it into the cabin is harder than bending on a folded sail.  I ended up gathering it up rather than folding on deck and stuffing it down the companionway.  I folded the same sail in the cabin and put it back up.  It was just to see how hard it would be to do this.  A folded sail is not hard to handle.

Where my sailplan is weak is in the light air department.  That's the exception in my sailing.  Drifting along on a closeby daysail and I don't care if I go slow.  Its when I've been sailing against the current in Nantucket Sound and the wind went light that its been a problem.  Can't make much headway in light air against a 2+ knot current.  None at all where it hits 3.5 knots.  Timing helps but the sail to windward from Nantucket to Martha's Vineyard is usually more than the 6 hour duration of the favorable current.

If you are carrying a really big headsail on your furler, then maybe the cutter rig and the staysail makes sense.  Changing sails could be a chore.

Curtis

[Bob23]

   I guess technically, one could reef a headsail on a furler just as a hanked-on headsail, right? My 135% has reef points sewn in, obviously it was used as a hank-on before the previous owner added the CDI furler. Perhaps a combination of taking a turn or two on the furler and tying in the reef points to further reduce headsail area. I never thought of doing this before reading your posts, Newt and Curtis. Can't wait for heavy air this summer to try it out.
   As far as light air is concerned, "Good Old Boat" magazine just did an article on a nylon headsail that seemed to work great in light air only, as a good blow would destroy it. If I remember correctly, it was kept in a bag and hoisted on a dedicated forestay so as to not interfere with the working jib which was on a furler. I'll see if I can dig though this chaos of an office of mine and look it up.
Bob23...counting the days!

[brackish]

Interested to see how that comes out, Newt.  The more pressing need for me is dealing with light air and what combination of sails would work best.  My only headsail is the OEM 110.  OK for the few heavy wind day's I'm likely to see but no good for the many light air days I'll see.  I'm thinking now a 135 with foam luff to get the most reef possible when necessary and a star cut asymmetrical (little flatter and smaller than the tri-radials, better for light air reaching, worse as you approach down wind, or so I'm told).  Wondering if you could pole the asymmetrical with a pole down haul when necessary and carry it further around to handle the dead down wind conditions without having to jibe so much.

At any rate, waiting for the last of my quotes to pull the trigger so I'll have the sails for this season.  Keep a photo project log if you decide to set up the way you've described.

[newt]

This is a good discussion Curtis, Bob and Brach. The reason I am leaning toward the flexabllity of a cutter is that wind here is all over the board. I can go out one day and drift along at a 3knt wind, the next day will be 35kts with gusts past 40. Usually i stay in the marina with days like that, but I have been gunkholing and been 20 miles from the marina...I have to solve the problem then.
I have a big genoa on the roller fuller, it tends to loose its effectiveness beyond about 30% furled. And as you guys know, the little boat is a pain to sail by main alone.
First problem- not enough reefs in the main I solved this spring with my new sewing machine and help from Sailrite.
With a cutter forestay- i can roll my furler and still have some good control of the rig in heavy weather. I do this all the time with my Valiant and it seems to do well.
Finallly, the light air problem: I plan on placing a second Jib from the bowsprit to the top with spinnaker halyard and make a Twisle rig. It will have an internal wire-rope that will hold it to the boat. That will make it lots of fun to go downwind with my sheet to tiller . I may need a drifter too, but not until I have maxed out my twin jib setup.

[Craig Weis]

I have sailed in big wind simply on the 155% lapper with the main foiled over the boom and lashed down. These pics are the day me and my sister-in-law put the rail in the water after years of trying.
skip.

[curtisv]

Does anyone have a photo showing how they rigged a spinaker halyard on the masthead so that it would not chafe on either tack?  I haven't figured out a good way to do that.

An assymetric would be a great light air addition and flying it free of the stay on a separate halyard would allow the working headsail to be furled rather than bent off the furler.

My concern is better light air performance to windward.  I think a traveller would help a lot.  A barber hauler (spell?) would do the job but is a little inconvenient if you need to tack a lot.  The stock Com-pac main is cut very flat so I'm thinking first traveller, then maybe new main to help overall sailing performance, then a light air headsail.  This is all a bit expensive so I've been waiting until a season where I get a chance to spend a lot of time on the water.  Not retired like some of you guys.

Curtis

[Bob23]

   Do you looseen your outhaul in light winds? Does that help? We don't get a lot of light air days around here so I haven't tried that.
   A traveller is also in my plans along with a winning lottery ticket. Currently, both ellude me. Considering I don't buy lottery tickets, the traveller will become reality sooner!
Bob23

[Potcake boy]

Newt - I noticed in one of the above posts that you stated that your rudder would be over powered and therefor you needed to keep the center of effort farther aft - toward the mast.

I am assuming that the overpowering you refer to is rudder cavitation due to excessive weather helm.  If that is the case, then moving the center of effort aft is only going to increase the problem.  You can verify this by example - main reefs bring the center of effort lower and forward, storm jibs bring center of effort forward and lower.

When I used hanked on sails, my inventory always included a storm jib.  Since you have a furler this isn't an easy approach but I have seen what may be a reasonable solution - it's the zip on storm sail that fits right over a furled head sail.  Haven't tried one, but the concept seems well founded.

This is stating the obvious I know but as a reminder, you should have your traveler well to windward in a blow.  Of utmost importance on our boats is to de-power enough to keep her as upright as possible, as excessive heeling is a major component of weather helm.

[newt]

What actually happens is that if I roll the furler up completely I get too much weather helm, if I let out the jib just enough to be functional...to much leeward helm. I have thought about a storm jib which zips on...I can make one easy enough, but the problem is still the lever is too far from the center of effort. It just overpowers our small boats. Hmmm- a true storm jib however may work. Maybe if I can put it on lines like a trysyl. But I still have a big rolled up jib to ruin the airflow...
I will keep you abreast of what my little loft churns out....

[Potcake boy]

Newt - I am a little surprised at the lee helm. Could it be that your jib shape is way too deep when furled causing it to be too powered up?  I think I'd go with the zip on storm jib to be sure of a good shape and no chance of an accidental unfurling of your regular headsail.  That could be a real tight pucker!!!

I fitted my 19 with new sails, and after much thought decided to stay with a 110 on a furler with a fairly flat cut.  Partly for convenience, partly for simplicity.  When the wind gets up I can furl it partially and still have a decent shape.  When the wind is very light I use a flat cut (North G3) spinnaker - and to address a previous question above can be winged out with a whisker pole to run dead downwind (riding the Greyhound).  My main is a loose footed full batten design which allows very easy shape control and can be powered up to max without being all bagged out.

I'd be eager to hear of your results if you choose the zip on storm jib, as I have no experience with that solution and would like to consider for the future.

Ron
P.S. found a picture of the main and spinnaker poled out on a run.  Thanks to Kchunk's on line tutorial I was able to present this pic.

[curtisv]

   Do you looseen your outhaul in light winds? Does that help? We don't get a lot of light air days around here so I haven't tried that.
   A traveller is also in my plans along with a winning lottery ticket. Currently, both ellude me. Considering I don't buy lottery tickets, the traveller will become reality sooner!
Bob23

Loosening the outhaul and main halyard a little helps, a little.  What helps most in getting a fuller shape is loosening the mainsheet, then barber hauler-ing the boom back over center.  Sheeting a little less tight on the jib gives a fuller shape and more power but loses a few degrees off the wind.

The $400 to $500 I might spend on a really good traveller doesn't bother me that much if it makes a big improvement in sailing, which I think it will.  If I really wanted to I could try to get away with something under $300, but I'd rather things that I'm confident won't break.

This is stating the obvious I know but as a reminder, you should have your traveler well to windward in a blow.  Of utmost importance on our boats is to de-power enough to keep her as upright as possible, as excessive heeling is a major component of weather helm.

Seems backward.  Traveller over center or to leaward a little, sheet down hard to flatten sail.  Maybe its not the same for a loose footed main.

What actually happens is that if I roll the furler up completely I get too much weather helm, if I let out the jib just enough to be functional...to much leeward helm.

Makes sense to me.  Too much power in the main and no power from the headsail is a sure way to produce lots of weather helm.

I'm not sure what "enough to be functional" would be on a 150 genoa on a furler.  Sounds right that it would be too much when the wind picks up quite a bit.

I had a stock 150 genoa and got rid of it.  Sailcloth was too heavy to be a good light air sail and it was too big in the normal wind conditions which are not light.  I understand that a lot of CP23 sailors fly a 135 to 150 as their primary (or only) headsail but unless you sail primarily in light air and only occasionally in moderate to strong conditions, then a 150 may be the wrong primary headsail.

No headsail is perfect for all conditions.  The key is to get a primary headsail that is right for the most common range of conditions you sail in and then get alternate headsails for the less common situations if you really need them.  For me that's a 110, a 60 for just in case, and later a larger light cloth, maybe nylon, big genoa/drifter or assymetric (or something, not sure).

BTW- I also moved my headsail sheeting point forward on the advice of the North Sails rep and had the sails cut for that sheeting position.  That makes a big difference.  I put the new set of sailtracks just aft of the aft lower chainplates.  The light air headsail will be sheeted to the original genoa tracks since I can't put a much larger headsail on the forward tracks.

Curtis