Horizon Cat with outboard

[CaptRon28]

I took a tour of the Clearwater factory the other day, with an Horizon and two Sun cats being built. I would probably like both, but am leaning towards the Horizon for several reasons - wider beam, more displacement, and the roomier cabin with the enclosed head (spousal requirement). Boat would spend it's wet life on various NJ bays and maybe an occasional visit down here to the SW coast of Florida - with possible trips out into the Atlantic and Gulf. Homeport would be my driveway in NJ, and that's why I'm leaning to either of these very easily rigged and launched cat boats. The diesel option is out of my price range, but I am still looking for either version of a used Horizon before I commit to a new Horizon or Sun. I've seen several already where the price does not really match the condition. Note that the new boats will be coming with a 2 cylinder 12hp Westerbeke now costing around 12,000 with the required options. The 1 cylinder Yanmar is history.

Assuming there are any Horizon outboard owners out there - some questions about the boat and motor:

I'm leaning towards the 58 pound 6 hp 25 inch shaft Tohatsu "sail drive" motor (manual start only). To get electric start I'd have to go up to the 9.8 hp motor. Probably overkill for this boat, and a lot heavier. Any comments?

The 6hp Tohatsu does not have a remote option. How easy it to reach the tiller, gear shift and motor bracket from the cockpit when the motor is down? Any problems with lowering or lifting it?

Does the outboard lift bracket get the prop of a 25 inch shaft out of the water when up? Does the optional $500 hd lift bracket (120 pound rating) have more range (higher and lower) or is it just heavier duty. Standard bracket is rated at around 80 pounds - good enough for the 58 pound motor.

Have any of you linked the motor to the rudder?

Any comments on resale value of the outboard Horizon? About 90 percent appear to be the diesel version.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Ron M
Telstar 28, new Compac Cat boat?

[Potcake boy]

Ron,
I haven't sailed a HCat, but had seriously considered a purchase a few years back.  On the motor, I'd recommend you consider the Yamaha 8hp high thrust model - it's available with remote and power tilt.  The 6 amp rectifier would be standard with electric start.  Not certain, but I suspect that a 20" shaft would be appropriate for that boat.  A longer shaft puts more torque on the motor bracket and transom.

I considered the purchase of a HCat a few years back, and decided the outboard would be the preferred power for the following reasons:
1. Less weight
2. Less cost
3. less heat/noise inside the cabin
4. More interior storage space
5. Easier maintenance
Though that Yanmar 1 cylinder as all of their motors, is a pretty good hunk of iron, the single cylinder is anything but smooth or quiet.

My opinion here as well, I think a 20' boat is too small for wheel steering - you get much quicker action with a tiller, and small boats do things much quicker than large boats.

Good luck which ever way you decide to go, and give me a shout when you acquire one so I can test it out with you.

Ron

[Craig Weis]

I'm going to step in here for no reason other then being curious. I thought a 'sail drive' was a through the hull unit. I Goggle Imaged it and only saw a long shaft out board. Is this what your looking at?

~Resale value. Diesel vs O/B. A O/B will kill the resale value.
~Can't reach the motor to start it. Or trouble shoot it. Or charge a battery .
~You'll have to fight the wheel interference. No tiller. And you can't reach over the combing. The big stretch.
~Can you imagine shifting F-N-R then spinning the wheel, then Shifting, then Spinning? Makes my head spin. Barfo!
~Can't pick the thing up. Too hard a reach over the transom. You'll cuss out the stern pulpit.
~At the very best cantilevered over the cockpit combing or pulpit. Buy Life Insurance Rider. ADAD.
~Transom mount for O/B 80 lb but what hp? My rating is 25 hp. No lb rating given.
~Prop will only clear dragging in the water with a short shaft. Prop will burble and babble along. Noisy. Draggy.
~IF the engine can be turned 90 deg and pulled up she MIGHT clear the water.
~The angle required to tilt out of water is exacerbated with the larger 4 cycle with bigger then 2 cycle engine enclosures.
~[I don't like 4 cycle O/B, Mostly because I don't like the EPA]. Buy a diesel. Japan needs your money.
~The centerboard down drag and 6 hp? I don't know. More poop may be needed in current & wind. Think ocean.
~I have been blown off the top of a long hard climb of waves back into the trough in heavy seas with 5 hp on my CP-19.
~Weight off the transom no problem with O/B.
~Space used for diesel engine & fuel tank not good for storage of lines, fenders, food, beer. And unimportant stuff.
~You'll be more manoeuvrable with an O/B to kick the stern around. Other then waiting for the rudder to kick in.
~Your not going to link the O/B and wheel together are you?
~All your dockmates will move a few slips away. But you'll provide entertainment. And valuable lessons.
~A folding prop on a diesel I/B may not allow effective backing as the prop folds up in reverse.
~The diesel would be the best. It's only a few more years of payments. But plan 'B' works too.

Plan 'B': Forget the engine and learn to sail up to the dock or mooring ball.
Look at thse pictures...That's a long way down to reach an O/B.

skip

[Potcake boy]

Ron,

There is a short thread about the Westerbeke 7A-1 in the Horizon Cat group.

Ron

[sun17cat]

Ron, I also considered a Horizon Cat before purchasing a SunCat. I looked at one that had an electric inboard at Great Lakes Sailboat Company, an interesting idea but I'm not sure how well proved. It is my understanding that most buyers want the inboard version so the initial outlay may come back to you when selling. If I was going to have one built I would strongly consider the Yanmar 1 GM Sail Drive, it is 9HP and would certainly be enough power. I had a Sea Pearl 27 built and installed a 2GM Saildrive with a Max Prop, it was a great system. The Max Prop is wonderful in forward and reverse and of course feathers when sailing. If you are not familiar with sail drives just go to the Yanmar web site and check them out. My 2008 SunCat is for sale and listed at Sailing Texas with pictures, I will sell it without the Torqeedo as shown in the photos.

Jim

[Napier6]

Ron, I have the Tohatsu 9.8 hp motor (aprox 85lbs) on my Eclipse and did buy it for the autostart function.  My wife and kids were the consideration.  After almost five years the wife hasn't pushed the button, and the autostart isn't working.  I had two batteries but am waiting on the second to die. No problem I just pull start. All in all it's a great engine, and quiet, but I would go for the lighter model now even though I had only pull start.
 

[CaptRon28]

In response to some of the above questions -

The 6hp 25 inch shaft Tohatsu is called the "Sail Pro" (my mistake). Besides the longer shaft, it also includes an alternator and a 6 inch pitch prop. Motor is made for sail boats or heavy slow power boats. Good motor for a decent price.

The diesel is absolutely out of the picture. I've got 2 other boats already, and my wife suggested I pick up a small sailboat to leave in NJ - so we wouldn't have to trailer the trimaran around anymore (boat and trailer are about 35 feet long and 6500 pounds). She was thinking $20,000, I can probably push it into the low 30's considering the Horizon's enclosed head (required feature). $45,000 is way above what she would go for. And I don't think it's worth the extra $12,000 anyway. My choice seems to be a Sun Cat or an Horizon Cat with outboard.

According to Hutchins, there are no more small 1 cylinder diesels made anymore (at least ones which are designed to power small boats). Westerbeke had dropped theirs and Yanmar has just done the same. Seems to be a casualty of EPA regulations. ComPac will be using the 2 cylinder Westebekes in future smaller boats with a diesel option. Cost will be $12,000. They've already re-molded the deck to accept the taller engine.

Besides a much lower cost, the outboard has other advantages, and a few disadvantages as well. I like the idea of no thru hulls. Note that these small diesels tend to run raw (sea) water thru the motor itself. No heat exchanger. I'll be in salt water and that sort of bothers me as well. Break something and worst case it's $1500 for another 6hp Tohatsu. That beats $12,000 for a new diesel.

There's absolutely no reason why you can't tie the rudder to an outboard so it turns with the rudder. My Telstar has 2 tiller shafts which can be pinned together to accomplish this. I briefly had a wing keel wheel steered Catalina 250 where I did it with a link rod. With the rudder away from the prop wash, this is something most people should do. Makes a world of difference when manueviring in close quarters.

I'm trying to keep the cost down. Dropping in a 9.9 Yamaha or similar will defeat that. See above. Also - my 6000 pound wing keel C250 had a Honda 9.9. Boat moved half way decent on motor, and the Horizon is 3500 pounds lighter.

I think Skip could be right about reaching the outboard when it's down in the water. The Horizon's coaming is sort of on the high side. Got to try this out and see what's involved. My C250 was sort of a pain in the neck too, and that did not have the high coaming like the Horizon has. I'm pretty sure I can build my own remote controls if needed - using cables or rods. And Tohatsu lists some parts for a 6hp remote control on their web site.

The $500 cost of the 120 pound motor bracket (above the standard 80 pound bracket) is almost ridiculous. Defender has these for about $250 outright. I think the 80 pound  bracket is rated up to around 8 hp and the 120 up to 20 hp. My Telstar uses a block and tackle to raise or lower an engine "box" mounted on the main hulls transom. The 20hp Honda is bolted to the box. That, or a rail type system could work too.

Thanks for all of the responses. Still hoping to hear from an Horizon owner who has the outboard.

Ron M
Telstar 28, ComPac Horizon (?)

[Potcake boy]

Ron,

I have a sort of hi-bred rig on my motor mount.  I is a conventional retractable but with the locking pin removed and a triple purchase system to raise and lower it.  Works great, and with out power tilt I don't have to hang over the transom to raise or lower it.  One of the advantages of the Yamaha is that it has a very long tiller hande with the shifter mounted near the throttle handle which makes it easy to reach from the cockpit.

Since you live nearby you should take a look at mine before making a decision - I'll be available by Thursday of this week (my lovely daughter is visiting from Maryland just now and I am the beach escort).  Give me a call.

Ron

[CaptRon28]

Ron -

The Telstar has something similar - a 4 part purchase that raises and lowers a box that the Honda is bolted to.

We've been meaning to get together anyway - with a sail on each others boat or a trip to the Icehouse or similar. The lousy weather down here seems to have changed these plans. After the next cold front goes thru (Wednesday / Thursday?), we should do this. For those not in SW Florida, the Icehouse is a local English Pub that stocks something like 150 kinds of beer, and it's gotten below 60 a number of  times. Brrrrr!.

Ron M.
Telstar 28, Horizon Cat ()

[Bob23]

150 kinds of beer...lead the way, man!
Bob23

[kahpho]

150 kinds of beer... all in one pub, oh yaa.

There's a place like that in Portland, Oregon. Well, just west of Portland anyway, in Hillsboro. They had the entire length of one wall lined with taps. If you couldn't find what you wanted there then plainly you didn't appreciate a cold beer. I had to move before I discovered which was the best. Oh well.

Lucky you though!

mel

P.S. good luck with the cat boat.