Making a new Tiller

[brackish]

Well, it's winter, got to do something when you can't sail!

Going to make a new laminated tiller.  Made the clamp frame yesterday patterned after the existing tiller but slightly longer.  Think I'm going to break with tradition and substitute walnut for mahogany and contrast with white ash.  Unstained walnut coated with an amber varnish warms up nicely and offers good contrast.  Titebond III glue, good open time in the winter and waterproof.  Still haven't decided whether to cut the taper on my band saw or make an MDF router template.  Template may be worth it I might want to do this again.  Haven't done this before, assuming with such a gentle curve and relatively thin laminates, steam assist not necessary.

Pictures when done (providing it comes out OK, otherwise the subject will not be brought up again.

Words of wisdom welcome from anyone who has done this.

[CaptRon28]

Not exactly "Words of wisdom" on building it yourself, but the Telstar Association (the 28 foot trimarans built in Annapolis) went directly to H&L Marine Woodworking to have them do a custom tiller for the boat. Shorter and a different curve than the stock one - multihulls do not really need a huge hunk of wood to steer. We're paying about $62 each with shipping for these custom tillers, less than half of what it would cost anywhere else. Note that H&L Marine Woodwork is also the best source for just about any marine wood product - they've been building this stuff for around 50 years and make most, if not all, of the production tillers.

If the Com-Pac Owners Association really exists (the forum seems to me the only exposure), I'm sure H&L would work with them. Anyone who wants to take the lead can contact me. I did all of the leg work on our deal. Also note that a lot of companies would be willing to work with an owners association on group purchases, etc. Many would treat you like a distributor with that pricing level. This includes Garhauer, Schaeffer, Lee Sail Covers and a bunch of others whom I have spoken too.

Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 "Tri-Power"  soon to be a Horizon or Sun cat owner (in addition to the Telstar)
Commodore - International Telstar Owners Associaton

[Craig Weis]

I have not done this, but that never stopped me from speaking up on advice.
Sounds like a good project. I like the choice of woods. And glue. And varnish.
The center laminates might be enhanced by a bisket pocket and hardwood bisket, two or three.
Nothing fancy, just C-clamp together every couple of inches. Let the glue squish out. Wrap in waxed paper.
If it was me I would glue up a laminated block and then rough it out to size and shape on the band saw.
Then sand to shape. Leave space for the undersided in-tiller socket used for the tiller minder. If you use one.
Drop a photo shoot as she's built no mater how it's done.

skip.

[Craig Weis]

CaptRon28 says..."If the Com-Pac Owners Association really exists (the forum seems to me the only exposure),"
What the heck does that mean?
I'm here. Were all here.
I don't get it.
Buying en mass from suppliers assumes we all need the same things. Doesn't it?

skip.

[brackish]

Interesting Ron.

In my case I'm a woodworker with a fully equipped wood shop, so it's much more "want to" rather than "have to".  Usually, I have enough other project scraps left over which are destined to be fireplace kindling or smoker wood when inventory exceeds storage space, so to do something as small as a tiller is essentially free.

H & L did have the best prices when I was researching, primarily to look at the pictures.

But the concept of an owners association getting distributor tier discounting is intriguing.  Not sure those with widespread and established distribution could do that without conflict, however, someone like Garhauer who seem to sell mostly direct would seem to be a likely candidate. 

As far as the owners association really existing, not sure what qualifies that to be.  Or if there would be enough potential volume to interest the manufacturers.

Skip, the issue with laminating the block first and then cutting the pattern is that the laminates do not follow the curve which is visually pleasing.  I have made a couple of tillers that way out of solid material, but I think the curved contrasting laminates are stronger and certainly nicer to look at.

[CaptRon28]

In response to the some of the above questions -

Are there elected or appointed officials of the Com-Pac Owners Association who would take the lead in these sorts of things? There is no mention of this anywhere on the forum.

"Group purchases" does not always mean many people buying things. It means a "group", and that could be 2, 5 or more owners who need a certain tiller or Hey, if the manufacturer is willing to drop ship  parts to members of an association as if the association was a distributor, why not take advantage of it? The Telstar tillers are going for less than half of what you could buy them in a store. Difference - we make no profit on it. In a previous life I had a big Catalina and I even got a major insurance company (Zurich) to sell a fantastic marine insurance policy to our members for a nearly upbelievable price. You'd be surprised at how many companies would jump at something like this, especially now with the economy in a tail-spin. I recently worked with Schaeffer on a line control traveller car upgrade for the Telstars. That's a company with normal distribution channels. So is H&L Marine Woodworking. They sent me a Christmas card with a big thank-you attached - for about 15 tillers so far. But I was more concerned that the 15 owners got a much better tiller for the boat for a reasonable price.

Ron M.
Telstar 28, Horizon or Sun cat soon.

[brackish]

If I seem dubious it is because I was head of manufacturing for a company that had a typical single level, broad based, independent distribution.  A key part of the agreement for having the distribution maintain inventory of our product, provide shelf space, catalog visibility,  parts and service, and market area advertising was that we did not undermine their efforts by selling directly in their markets  below what was possible with their particular tiered discount.  I know a number of companies do sell directly in competition with their distribution (I think we do now, I've retired), but what I've noticed is that they usually maintain pricing at MAP or above or at list.  Even at national shows where our company employee's sold directly to the public with special show pricing, the customer was asked which distributor was to get credit and the product was drop shipped to that distributor for delivery to the customer.

All that said, product markets are different and I have an open mind.  I've been participating on this forum for less than a year, and to my knowledge that's all it is.  There are moderators, but no charter, officers, or organizational structure.  However, I am considering installing mid boom sheeting with a traveler system and a 6:1 sheeting arrangement and if you can negotiate an owners association discount from one of the major hardware suppliers, I will be happy to nominate you for president as soon as you acquire one of those fine looking cat boats you are considering.

[CaptRon28]

I'm waiting for a call from Gerry Hutchins to tell me that he has enough of an Horizon assembled for me to see. I'm shooting for about 75 percent done. They don't even have the hull yet (they get them from an outside manufacturer). At that point, and after a test sail sometime /  someplace, I will probably order one. Or maybe the Sun cat if I think that is the better buy, factoring boat vs. cost. According to Gerry, earliest I'd see a new Horizon is mid-summer if I ordered it today.

I would not be comfortable buying any new boat without seeing how it is assembled AND how it sails. I've seen many recomendations from owners of many boats who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. There is GOOD and good, and there is also bad and BAD. A lot of people just don't know the difference.

Since I'm already running one owners association, I'm not really in the position to head up another. I also know very little about Com-Pacs. Both of these situations could change one day. But note that many manufacturers would be willing to work with an owners association who represents a significant portion of the boats manufactured. Besides actual sales, it generates good will in the sailing community.

Ron M.
Telstar 28 - Horizon or Sun cat coming?

[Craig Weis]

I would find a Horizon owner and invite myself on for a ride.
Then do the same for a SunCat.

I have 'toured' both at the boat show and if I had the Jing it would be the Horizon/diesel.

skip. Nothing wrong with the SunCat but extra feet make an extra big difference.

[Salty19]

Hi Cap't Ron-Welcome to the forum.

To explain this association...this forum is it.  It's just a bunch of like minded Com-pac sailers chewing the fat as most internet forums do.
We have some very bright folks here with various backgrounds from novice to Captain. Most own a Compac-the 16's and 23's probably being the most popular, some are looking for more information to buy one like yourself, all look to glean hints, tips, modifications, and a good laugh.  There are no member fees or elections...it's not organized or frankly moderated much. We moderate outselves-and do it well. CaptK who you probably know from sailfar, setup and admins the forum.  And we all appreciate him for giving a chance to communicate.  We had a really nice photo gallery but it doesn't work now and hasn't worked for some time.


If this turned into a membership style, elections based organization I think you would find poor participation.  Between various folks on this forum, we've managed to get sailing events executed (one planned for Caryle Lake, IL from July 8-12, 2010), share a lot of information.  

Haven't done a group buy or be involved in a distribution plan that you're mentioned that I know of. That would probably be of benefit for sails, IDA rudder, electronics, etc. But would enough people buy components to make it worthwhile?  I don't know... As a side I will say the factory support is very good..many folks including myself have made unusual requests and they deliver.  You could probably have your Horizon setup in a custom fashion (not on the OEM optional list). My 1998 CP19XL has a one off hull color and stern rail seats that are not on the parts list. Also the engine mount is not the standard mount, it's more heavy duty. Talk to Gerry about custom. Oh and ask him abuot plans for a multihull and let us know

As for kicking the fiberglass...I think you'll be impressed how they are built. Definitely poke your head around the factory-Gerry is accomodating.  There are very few failure stories and those are 90% user error. Even on boats built in 1977.  You may also be able to snatch a test ride on another forum members' boats.  Just ask in the Horizon Cat area.

[CaptRon28]

Salty & Skip -

I've been looking for a ride on an Horizon for at least 6 months now. Posted messages on this forum and the yahoo version. Had one offer, but it was over 1500 miles away. Might drive down to the Miami show if I find out there is one there - and the dealer will put it in the water. Dealers do not order this boat to keep in stock, so there are very few around. I will get a ride on a local Sun cat in a week or two.

I think I like the Horizon better - larger boat, heavier, probably does better out in the Gulf, large bays and the Atlantic. The Jersey shore will be it's primary sailing area. Also has an enclosed head - a requirement of my better half.  BUT - we're talking about a MAJOR difference in price, especially if I tack on the diesel and it's mandatory options. At least 13K more for the outboard Horzon and 23+K for the diesel. For 3 feet of boat? I've also been looking for used Horizon's as well. Looked at two, both in horrible condition and very over-priced considering their condition and this economy. There's a few scattered around the east coast for sale too - at nearly what a new one would cost me.

If a bunch of owners realize that they all want to make the same upgrades or buy the same equipment, one of them (as a representative of this forum) should contact the manufacturer(s) about a group discount.  You can talk to them at the shows too.

Ron M

[Craig Weis]

"Also the engine mount is not the standard mount, it's more heavy duty" On a C-P 19. The standard unit is right out of the West Marine catalog. Good for 20 hp.

Dollar wise the Horizon in terrible shape will be a lot of $$ because they started out a such a high price. Look at all the middle men who have to get paid. The hull maker, the hull assembler, the dealer, then the purchaser pays and he'll want to recover as much as possible. High cost boat. Like the Nonsuch boats.
skip

[Bob23]

   Can't help you find one but 2 summers ago I and my 23 were passed by a beautiful green one up here in Manahawkin Bay, NJ. They are wonderful boats undersail. I've thought about a catboat for a while and the Suncat is about as small as I'd want to go.
   I don't know why catboats (from any builder) cost as much as they do. Even used ones just seem to hold thier prices well.
Bob23

[Craig Weis]

Go back and find that article about the Yankee Cat Boat posted a half year ago and read how stable safe and desirable these hulls are.

[botelerr]

I saw this cat on Craigs list , I'm not familar with maker , but had some CPY lines -to me. RBB

http://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/1589848051.html