Okie Engineering

[nies]

Guys, went to garage, 14 inches from forestay to hole in guide frame for anchor roller on front of standard bowspirit (CP16), me thinks enough room to slip a sail through with the aid of a line or two............Phil

[daryl81]

My 16 was cutter rigged when I bought it. An older man in Arkansas had bolted a 2"x6" of treated pine to the foredeck for a bowsprit and used steel cable and cable clamps for the forestay and the bobstay. The original jib was used as a staysail and he had a loft in Tulsa cut a new foresail. When I got the boat, all of this was rusted or rotten and I returned the boat to the fractional sloop rig as original. His kids that sold me the boat told me their Dad loved the way the boat sailed as a cutter. He had it on Beaver Lake in the early 80's and then bought a Cape Dory 25 and the 16 sat under the pines and oaks and gathered water and moss....

 
Sitting in Arkansas



Back to better than new!!!!

[kchunk]

Effectively, that's kinda what I'm picturing, minus the steel cable, clamps, pressure treated pine, rust, rot, etc. I suppose the materials one uses would be up to the individual. How far in front of the bow would you estimate the 2X6 went...just curious. Did it have an aft stay? I bet it did sail nice...probably looked like crap, but sailed nice.

BTW...sweet job you've done on your boat there!

[daryl81]

Thanks, I remember it was about 4' long and he had 2 3/8" bolts through bolted in front of and behind the area where the cleat is on the factory layout. He had moved the cleat back and had the bobstay clamped to the boweye. That means there was about 3' out in front of the bow. When I looked at it and thought of renewing the cutter rig, I was concerned about the lack of a back stay and the strain of that much sail on the rig. I don't think Arkansas and the Ozarks gets the strong and gusting wind that we get here in Kansas and decided to be conservative with the rig.

[OkieBob]

besides, it'll be such a cute little sail on a 16, how possibly could it be unmanageable?

No question, it would look sweet; a 16 foot boat with two foresails.  I've noticed how amazing these PDR guys can pimp-out their 8 foot boats; I've even seen one with two foresails.

So I have two questions:  The first and most important question, "Is the deck at the bow strong enough to support the sprit (taking into consideration standing rigging suppports)?"  Second, "Would I want two furlers (one for each foresail)?"  But the deck attachment is the critical step.

[B.Hart]

    Daryl, The boat looks great!  COM-PAC owners can see her beauty beneath the grime. Every COM-PAC needs a good home.   BILL

[Craig Weis]

besides, it'll be such a cute little sail on a 16, how possibly could it be unmanageable?"

Go ahead turn the sloop into a cutter with an additional sail. The more canvas spread, the merrier.
Well tell you what son, little boats roll over a heck of a lot more easily then big boats. And because of the small size maneuvers either planned or unplanned happen much faster. Which is why 'dinky' racing is such a gas!!

"Is the deck at the bow strong enough to support the sprit"

Best guess is that the bow sprit just doesn't hang on the deck. The bow sprit installed on Wind Rover was through bolted through a stainless steel flat bar on edge and then through the fiberglass deck just below the radius, the strongest point. So plenty of meat there to hold the bow sprit down, and as always the dolphin between the end of the bow sprit and the hull is the cable that actually takes the strain of the fore stay, not the sprit. And the sprit simply holds the bow sprit 'out there' and if properly constructed is a vee and will not open the vee up to allow the bow sprit to be pulled back toward the stern.

"Would I want two furlers (one for each foresail)?"  But the deck attachment is the critical step"

Furlers anchored at the factory tang are more then fine. A second tang can be placed anywhere on the deck as long as the through bolting has a back up plate. For back up plates I use 6mm aluminum plate. But 1/2" marine ply works just as well. For the size I'd go with 4" x 4" square or the size of a CD round. Can you imagine pulling a CD through the deck? I can't.

I anchor the tac of my asymmetrical spinnaker high above the deck and as far out in front of the hull as possible directly onto the bow pulpit that has 4 round feet with 4~1/4" bolts* each running through plywood hard points under the deck. Since the bow pulpit is all welded, your not going to break a weld so using an old solid flat rubber strap with a 1/4" line and bowline eye looped through the strap becomes the tac. The rubber strap is looped around the 3/4" thinwall stainless steel tubing. The loop allows the tac to move port to starboard when changing tac. This huge sails pulls like a bear, driving the boat smartly and the pulpit stays put. The spinnaker's clue is sheeted to the stern cleat. Here we are doing some drift sailing.


It's all about spreading out the strain. And Com-Pac's being a resign impregnated 1-1/2 once cloth of multi-layers with zero core are a heck of a lot stronger then decks built up using a chop gun. Stay away from those boats built like this. It's fine for the dune buggy bodies I use to shoot. These bodies did not have to do anything but sit on a floor pan.

*1/4" or 0.25" x 10,000 lb divided by 4 = 625 lb x 16 bolts = 10,000 lb. So your not going to shear bolts or pull the pulpit out of the deck either. Heck that's 4 times the weight of the 2000 lb Com Pac 19 boat.

Wire rigging:

Our standing rigging is 5/32 and good for 2,400 to 2,800 lb. So we are WAY good as far as backing plates are concerned.



skip.

[Craig Weis]

Our standing rigging is 5/32" and good for 2,400 to 2,800 lb. or 3,300 lb.
So we are WAY good as far as backing plates are concerned.

skip.

[OkieBob]

Skip,

Beautiful boat!!!  Thanks for the rigging specs.

Hey I hate to be dense, but are saying I need to design the bowsprit so that some of the force is pushing against the outside of the hull to relieve the deck stress, or are you saying the deck is so strong I don't need to worry about the deck stress?

[Craig Weis]

"I need to design the bowsprit so that some of the force is pushing against the outside of the hull" Hummmmm what does this mean? What ever that means I did not say that. Let me say this about that...being a bit long winded...

No not exactly. The bow sprit if one was to place it on the ground would have an open vee made out of teak and that will snug right up to the bow, wow, wow just above the rubber rub rail and sit atop the ss metal cap where both rub strips come together.
This whole wood piece is surrounded by a stainless steel flat bar on edge and the ends of this surround are long enough for three bolts going through the deck's edge. Just above the hull/deck seam.

What I meant was that the fwd stay at the end of the bow sprit will impose a strain on the bow sprit and push that wood vee into the pointy end of the hull. The wood will survive this strain because the ss flatbar will limit the bow sprits movement.

Additionally the fwd stay will be held down and secured with the dolphin stay under the bow sprit and the hull tow eye and the tang that secures the dolphin.

Plenty of meat up there to do this job just fine.

The deck needs nothing using such a small sail except a backing plate where ever the second tang for the cutter sail lands on the deck. I'll bet West Marine has just such a tang for this purpose.

Interesting because 'Wind Rover' had a bow sprit added the extra tang to secure a second fwd stay for a second sail was available. It just worked out that way. Captain Rank uses this extra fwd stay for his 'soling stay' and storm jib.

skip.

[nies]

oakieBob, I have 14 inches on my bow spirit,1978 CP16, just worked out on paper that carrying the 14 inches at the same angle as the  fore stay would take the new outer stay to the top of the mast (new stay would be 19 feet long) , thus any bow spirit that would move the added (new) outer stay further than approx. 14 inches would have the stay going over the top of the mast if you were going to keep the same distance between stays, I hope my cal. are correct, but if not I am sure someone will correct me........Phil

[kchunk]

I did the same thing Phil and came up with about the same length...but after seeing the stays on the Newport Venture I dismissed the idea that the stays need to be parallel. I'm sure there's a theoretical "ideal" length of the bowsprit taking into account the sail area, placement of the mast, size of the sails, length at the waterline, displacement, yadda, yadda, yadda. All those calculations are way above my abilities of armchair naval architect. If I were doing it I'd make a nice long bowsprit of a length I found most visually appealing and maybe mess around with a few old sails to try different size setups.

[nies]

kchuck, in the relatively short distance of 15 feet(inside stay) and 19 feet (outside stay) by not having the slot between the stays (sails) parallel would ruin the max. air flow (drawing power) of the sails and also make for a funny looking boat (one mans opinion).............Phil

[kchunk]

Ah...beauty (as well as funny looking) is in the eye of the beholder. Did you see the picture of the Newport Venture I posted earlier in this thread? A mighty handsome looking boat in my opinion. The stays are no where near parallel.

I think the idea with a project like this, with the space between stays being relatively short, is to go with a yankee sail on the forward stay (I think that little sail is called a yankee...I can't remember for sure). This way you're not trying to drag a large jib or genoa through what would be considered a relatively small slot for a cutter.

--Greg

[nies]

Greg, as usual you are right, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I did see the pictures of the Newport Venture......what can I say ,except as a man who loves hogs (pigs) and finds them beautiful, who am I to judge other people who don't have an eye for form and function ,"just kidding"..........sail on, Phil