Need help on sails

[JustStartin]

Hey guys & gals, I need some assistance and recommendations on new sails for my CP-19.  I'm replacing the original sails (from '83!!!) and need recommendations on the following:

1.  What size genny (will be on a CDI FF2 furler)?
2.  Fully battened main?
3.  Luff rope or slugs?

I received a quote from a sailmaker that had great pricing but mentioned that the dacron was 4 oz.  Isn't that a little on the thin side?

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!  Happy sailing!!

[Potcake boy]

Hey Juststartin - I sail a 19 and here's what I did:
New main - Loose footed full batten with slugs
New jib - roller furler with cover - use existing fairleads on coaming
Spinnaker - North G3 - flat cut asymmetrical

I purchased main and jib from Dirk at National Sails on the web - quite happy with that purchase.
Purchased spinnaker from North's Cruisers Direct - have always liked North sails but I am sure National Sails would have been just as good.

This combination has worked well for me in all wind conditions and very importantly it keeps it simple.
To use a genoa you will need tracks/cars etc. and it would be necessary to sheet that big sail outside of the upper shrouds which means you can't point as high.  When furling to a reef a big sail will have a terrible shape which can be mitigated to a degree with a foam luff.  In light air I can point as high with my G3 as I would be able to do with a genoa, and of course I pack it up as the wind picks up and unfurl the 110%.  The G3 is also a strong sail on a reach and can be poled out for running.
As far as the main - I love full battens and having a loose footed set up allows easy adjustment of chord depth without stretching the crap out of your sail.  The battens give you a nice even shape and also prevent violent flogging which as you know is really bad for your sail.  I set up a track on the after end of my boom with a hook for the clew and control the shape with a pretty typical out haul.  I also use the same hook for the reef - no reef line to crush and wrinkle my beautiful main.  The track is long enough to allow the hook to come forward to the position of the reef cringle.  I roll and tie the unused foot so it stays nice.  Every time you bunch a Dacron sail up like a paper wad it breaks some fibers which increase the parasitic drag of the surface.
I had my jib cut so that it is flat (no twist) when sheeted in with the fixed fairleads.  That is an all around good solution and keeps it simple.
I sail by myself much of the time so I use a sock for the spinnaker as it is not easy to retrieve under the boom from the cockpit.  The sock (Chute Scoop) also makes it more manageable if you find your in a difficult situation and need to douse it quickly - you can leave it hoisted till you are in a better circumstance to go forward and stow it. The bag I also got from the Chute Scoop folks and it's called a Turtleroo.  It is sunbrella and a very nice product with stowage for sheets and chute control lines. I was out most of the day yesterday in the light afternoon South Easterlies of Florida and had ample opportunity to fly the spinnaker on different points of sail.  I was trying to get an accurate fix on the angle I could sail to windward with it but the wind was too light and shifting to peg it .  I'll have to say it appeared that I was sailing just about as close as with the jib, but our Compacs aren't really windward witches anyway. That is why I also have a #6 spinnaker made by Yamaha.

If you feel that you are not up to flying a spinnaker don't let that hold you back - it takes a little learning but well worth the effort.  If you need more input on the necessary rigging let me know.  You can learn the basics of sailing a spinnaker in any sail trim book. There is nothing like having  a good pull of a spinnaker while sailing on almost flat water, our Compacs love it.

If you don't think sailing is great then just sea for yourself

Ron

[Craig Weis]

You might just call up Johnson sail.

For the lapper on the headsail triangle I'd go with 155% with the UV strip.

For the main I'd stay stock with batten pockets as original and slugs for the boom slot.

Face it she ain't no racer. Why do full battens on a non-performance boat?

Buy new sails from DorSail in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin. Charley Klein can whip up a set toot-sweet. And send the old ones out for a tune-up and sell them. But not to me.

www.DorsalSailsandCanvas.com | Dorsal LLC, 61 Michigan Street, Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235 | Phone: 920-743-4126 | Fax: 920-743-4139 | E-mail: Charlie@dorsalsailsandcanvas.com

Located in an historic building in the heart of Sturgeon bay at the northeast end of the downtown bridge where both Palmer Johnson and his father built wooden yachts, fishing boats and military craft, we are located in a true ?loft? that was used for both spar building and lofting over the years.

If the exterior stairs to our entrance inside the boatyard now called ?Great Lakes Yacht Services? seem too daunting, please call (920) 743-4126 for assistance and/or the ?secret? inside passage. The image to the right is taken from the downtown bridge as you cross from the west to the east (or to many non-locals, south to north).


WHO  |  WHAT  |  WHERE  |  WHEN  |  WHY | LINKS | HOME
DORSAL, LLC
61 Michigan St., Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235
Phone: 920-743-4126   Fax: 920-743-4139
E-mail: Charlie@dorsalsailsandcanvas.com
www.DorsalSailsandCanvas.com

A star-cut asymmetrical spinnaker from SailEast might be fun. I have one but it is under used. Comes with the bag to douse it.
skip.

[Bob Condon]

My sails in my CP19 were junk so I purchased a SailRite sewing machine
(Blue Zig Zag) and purchased a main sail and a 155% Genoa kits.

The main sail has one reef, boltrope for mast attachment (would recommend slides).

The 155% has a 12" sun protector shield on the trailing edge.

Having the machine makes it easy to make anything else you need such as Tiller cover, winch covers,
screens for companionway and hatch.

by purchasing the machines and the kits, I beleive that it would be the same price as buying the
two sails from a sail maker... so I end up with more toys.

I plan to make some cushions for the cockpit because my backside is getting old so a little comfort would be nice.

Bob

[Craig Weis]

Holy cow! 2x the $'s better open up a business, 'Betsy Ross's Sail Making School and Emporium" , "Where Betsy buys low and sells lower."

Ought to give classes. The guy in the White House needs more of your money from taxes. I didn't know they had kits...so how do you like the machine? The UV strip is a must around here.

Twice now over the years it was blowing so hard that I un-stiched my UV strip loose and Charley's girl Celeste sewed it back on in 20 minutes, no charge.

Cushions sound like a great idea. skip.

[Bob Condon]

Skip:

I do all my maintenance and try to be self sufficient in the toys I buy.

Full woodworking shop, built dinghy...etc REASON:  either the price
is beyond what I am willing to pay, or the quality does not match the price. too many contractors
are hackers and do a lousy job, hide too much crap.

For sails, on my Cape Dory (Ocean going), I went to Doyle for a new main... was not cheap
but the quality is high and using local folks is good policy, even if it is more expensive then
getting stuff from Asian countries.

I like woodworking, sewing, framing, boat building ...most anything you build and learn. I buy tools to support my
habits instead of paying for service if I can do a good job.. Took 2 cake decorating classes to get to
may artistic side... I will stay with the baking and leave the decorating to someone else!

Example: Rear shocks and front struts are going in my Sienna. Toyota wanted $2k to do the work
and I will do most of it myself (except spring compressor on the struts) but the rest is pretty easy and
mindless work. It will cost me about $450 + $50 in labor for compressor. I am tired of really feel taken
so I learn and learn some more.

I have a full metal working machine shop but did not spend enough time
with my Dad when he was using the gear so I have a basic understanding of all the equipment but plan on going
to technical school classes to add to the skill set...

For me it is a mindset. It is interesting how a couple of us at work had lines out our doors
asking about house maintenance, painting, plumbing, electrical and with a little knowledge,
we enpower our fellow employees to take their lives back and stop taking the rod up the backside.

I understand that chair caning is a dying art and many of the old folks are looking for
trainees otherwise the art will be lost. Lots of antuques to be recaned and there is good money in it...

[editorial ON]
retirement.. i doubt it.. won't be able to afford the health insurance.. or the fine when I don't have any.
I live in Massachusetts and already have those threats in place...
[editorial OFF]

[Potcake boy]

Bob,
You just exposed an often overlooked aspect of sailing - self reliance.  Though most of us don't have the time to go offshore cruising, those that do surely can identify with your thinking.

I think it is certainly a dying art as so many people today mistake technological convenience as a replacement for learning self reliance.  This is a big issue with people wanting to extend their sailing adventures beyond their skills of survival and expect modern technology to step in when needed.  This is not only endangering other souls on the water but can be very expensive in terms of resources.  Having the Coast Guard come rescue you because you are in a storm and don't know how to survive it is probably even more expensive than health care.  Your burial at sea would be a lot cheaper (sorry it was my dark humor that said that).

It follows that I believe we should all learn the skills of self reliance to the extent of our sailing scope and stop pretending that all that electronic stuff and gadgets at the boat store are going to guarantee our safety.  I think we should be able to make a reasonable attempt at our own rescue before calling on others to put their lives on the line.  I also take very seriously the responsibility of the captain for the safety of his crew.  It is often overlooked that the lives of crew are in the hands of the skipper.

And you're right - needing to purchase all that extra stuff and services does make us slaves to the system.  Look what happened to the Eskimos - they ended up with Sarah Palin as their leader (LOL).

I'd go to sea with you any day Bob, I'd even fetch your beer for ya matey.

Ron

[Bob Condon]

Well, I am embarressed to say that Massachusetts just decided to let the governor
pick the next Senator (who will be democratic of course) for the next 5 months).

I have always been an independent voter, but yesterday heard a reall good commentary
on why our legislature should have voted this down. "The only reason to have the governor
assign a Senator is because we need need the votes on Health Care. If the Health Care proposal
was SO GOOD that we did not need to protect against fillabustering by the Republicans, then we would
all vote for it and be happy. The reality is that the proposal is not that good so by having good olde Massachusetts
assign a democratric Senator, it is a slam dunk and every hard working American can take it on the chin"


Right now we are "fined" (aka taxed) if we do not have health care in Massachusetts and it is going national

sigh...

[Craig Weis]

Bob, automotive front or rear end struts are easy, a good six point socket, a breaker bar, a can of jizzem, a little heat, a hammer, a 'pickle fork, a box of ss hose clamps to compress the spring, and your home free, except for the wheel alignment.
Did you know that McPherson was a Ford engineer who came up with the idea? Ford said NEVER, so he went to Europe.
Smart move.
skip.

[Potcake boy]

Just Startin - was out sailing today on my 19 in the light air of a Florida summer.  Set the spinnaker once again and enjoyed a nice ride even in the zephyrs of the day. Just to reiterate that I am extremely pleased with the sail configuration that I set up on my 19, it all works together very well and yields the best overall performance with the least futzing around.  The main tells you if you aren't trimmed right, the spinnaker is quite forgiving of lackadaisical helmsmanship, and the jib is like a cup holder - it's there when you need it, does it's job with no fuss and, stows easily away when not needed.

I live in SW Florida - if you live anywhere near or will be in the area, I'd be happy to take you out for a sail to see how these sails work out on a 19.

Ron

[nick23]

On my 23, I have a similar headsail setup to Ron - 100% hank-on jib with one reef point (~60%) and then a big asym spinnaker.   I finally got a chance to fly the spinnaker a couple weeks ago and it is probably the most fun I have had on the boat.  I have a jib bag for the jib, so it never even has to come below deck.  To fly the spinnaker, I just just unclipped the halyard and left the jib bunched up against the lifelines, no need to unhank it from the forestay.

I find that I don't really miss having a bigger genoa at all, and with this setup, the only sail that has to come below deck is the spinnaker, which is small and easily stuffs in a locker.  A roller furling jib would be great too, and even less hassle but higher cost. 

I got my new main from National Sails - great place, highly recommended for cost and quality.

[JustStartin]

Just Startin - was out sailing today on my 19 in the light air of a Florida summer.  Set the spinnaker once again and enjoyed a nice ride even in the zephyrs of the day. Just to reiterate that I am extremely pleased with the sail configuration that I set up on my 19, it all works together very well and yields the best overall performance with the least futzing around.  The main tells you if you aren't trimmed right, the spinnaker is quite forgiving of lackadaisical helmsmanship, and the jib is like a cup holder - it's there when you need it, does it's job with no fuss and, stows easily away when not needed.

I live in SW Florida - if you live anywhere near or will be in the area, I'd be happy to take you out for a sail to see how these sails work out on a 19.

Ron

Ron, thanks for the offer but I live in SE Michigan.  Nearing the end of the season here soon.  Whatever sails I decide to get, I know I'll get a good deal with the season winding down.


Thanks again!

[Bob Condon]

The best deals will be in the next couple of weeks.

When I ordered custom sails from Doyle, they were setting up for the winter
build season. They are kept busy through the sailing season with repairs, now they start the
washing and repair season.

Once you get to Christmas, those folks "think" they are early, but most of the seasons
orders are in and will be pressed to get the sails by spring.

If you are ordering from an overseas maker, they simply have one
consistent output and because they have so many customers world wide, the price
will not change.

If you go to a show, stop by the booths and ask them about price there
because they always have a little better pricing there. If you are dealing with a
local shop, it is ok to try to negotiate a little. I got a good price because a couple
of Doyle shops were trying to get my business. I wanted the  local Doyle shop to have
my business so they threw in cleaning of 3 sails for free (which was worth around $200)
and I paid for any repairs that were needed (minimal).

Supporting the local folks is a good deal. While sailing, the fiberglass batten flew out of the pocket
and went spash. A quick call to Doyles and they had a new one cut and ready to go... free..

Good luck!