Hull speed vs. wind speed

[kickingbug1]

   being that we are all com-pac sailors, by nature we are cruisers not racers. that said, the performance of my 16 is of some concern. last summer my wife and i were sailing in sustained 12 mph winds. sailing to windward we achieved 5.3 knots with a bit more on the gusts. it was kind of fun trying to best that the rest of the day. when that little boat hits a groove its like flying even though shes relatively slow. at seasons end i bought a new mainsail and i cant wait to get that extra .4 knots of speed. like most people i want my cars to perform to their potential guess i expect the same from my little boat.

[Steve Ullrich]

I'm more or less in the same boat... New sails under the Christmas tree, blizzard outside.  The OEM main was blown out.  We should be able to get a bit more speed out of her with new sails I would think.  New 135 genoa as well... that can't hurt a thing either.  I've also purchased a replacement blade for the rudder from Ida Sailor.  All in all I have a lot to look forward to playing with in the spring.

   being that we are all com-pac sailors, by nature we are cruisers not racers. that said, the performance of my 16 is of some concern. last summer my wife and i were sailing in sustained 12 mph winds. sailing to windward we achieved 5.3 knots with a bit more on the gusts. it was kind of fun trying to best that the rest of the day. when that little boat hits a groove its like flying even though shes relatively slow. at seasons end i bought a new mainsail and i cant wait to get that extra .4 knots of speed. like most people i want my cars to perform to their potential guess i expect the same from my little boat.

[Craig Weis]

These are kind of interesting.

skip.

[HenryC]

I've had one for years, specifically, a Weems & Plath #105. A very useful item.  They've been around for years. I first used one in the Navy to help pilot a destroyer.  Are these becoming rare enough to merit special mention?  I hope not, they are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-nsr02.html

[Steve Ullrich]

Thanks Henry, that's pretty cool.  I ordered one for the hell of it.  Might never use it but maybe it will be fun to play with or teach the kids how to use.

I've had one for years, specifically, a Weems & Plath #105. A very useful item.  They've been around for years. I first used one in the Navy to help pilot a destroyer.  Are these becoming rare enough to merit special mention?  I hope not, they are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/-nsr02.html

[kchunk]

they are far superior to any of the digital alternatives.

OK, I understand that sailing generally attracts "purists" to it's sport. That said, I'm sorry but there is no way you can convince me that any mechanical "calculator" is far superior to any digital alternative. In fact, in an apples to apples comparison, comparing your cute little spinny spin calculator to my chart plotter would be just plain silly.

Now before you old "purists" get all wound up, I'm not talking about "What if the batteries run dead?" or "What if nuclear winter blocks out GPS satellites?" or "What if you sail off the edge of the earth?" I'm talking about apples to apples, daily sailing, heading out for a couple days, can't find a camp site in the middle of the night sailing. An affordable chart plotter is an invaluable tool and your nautical slide rule is a cute little nautical "decoration". A reminder of how navigating used to suck before GPS.

Oh, and the sextant, oil lamp and chip log? They're decorations too!

Happy New Year!  (Thank God it's 2010 and not 1910)

--Greg

[nies]

Oh Greg, one of life's lession is backup for everything.......1910 wasn't that bad except for the plumbing......Phil

[HenryC]

Digital technology is superior.  IF you need to calculate your speed in milliseconds to ten decimal places precision, or if you need speed reports several hundred times a second, or if you and your crew have learned to integrate all your digital systems so that you are constantly getting updated tactical reports on digital readouts and vision screens like on the bridge of a Klingon battle cruiser.    But if you don't know all the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart or can't convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in your head you're just an accident waiting to happen. And you will.  I guarantee it.

The best "electronic" navigators are nuclear submarine quartermasters (after all, they haven't got much choice), but they get that way through constant drills and training, much more than any amateur and even most professionals ever get.  And they still manage to run aground on charted reefs in plainly marked harbors every now and then.   They do so because electronics, no matter how dependable or accurate they may be, are not instinctive and automatic.  They impose on us  an alien and unnatural way to communicate with machines. When you're tired or scared or disoriented you will screw up, just like you can even with primitive tech.  The difference is that if you screw up with analog tools your experience and your judgment tells you immediately.

If you're used to pushing a button and getting an answer, the day your equipment tells you gibberish; whether because of a  malfunction or the much more common  operator error,  you will never notice, or worse, you'll freeze and be unable to trust any of your instruments at all.  Oops! Another GPS-assisted grounding.

[kchunk]

Honestly, Henry. Your purist angle, combined with your literary ability surely makes a navigation slide rule sound like a better option (if not a more romantic one). But really...have you ever used a chart plotter? (and I don't mean that in a condescending manner). Reading your post sounds like if you use a chart plotter you'll forget how to keep a watch...or if you use an auto tiller you'll forget how to manually steer a boat. I can just imagine: "Uh...Honey, the tiller pilot has stopped working and I can't remember which way that stick in the cockpit has to go in order to steer the boat. We're doomed!" We're talking about little cruising sailboats, not Klingon battle cruisers...and by the way, my chart plotter does light up with digital readouts and vision screens. With just a glance I know my speed, the depth, heading, where my next nav marker is, how long before I reach it a the present speed, what time I'm expected to arrive at my destination...heck, even gives me the water temp, tides and currents. But I don't think any average mariner replaces "navigating" with some electronic device. Reminds me of the story of the retired couple that just bought a brand new motor home after retirement. First trip out, they get on the highway and with the husband driving, he sets the cruise control and heads back to make himself a sandwich. Sure it's a funny story, but is it true...eh...I don't know. Kinda like all them stories of power boaters. Every sailer has an arsenal of stories about a power boater.

And by the way, saying "if you don't know all the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart or can't convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in your head you're just an accident waiting to happen." I find a little insulting. I consider myself a person of above average intelligence and I've heard from others that my seamanship is at least above average and I can tell you with a straight face, I know not the algebraic variations of D = Rt by heart nor can I convert decimal speeds to minutes and seconds in my head. And I also don't think I'm better than a fellow boater simply because I own a sailboat or I can tell the difference between starboard and port with barely a moments thought.

A navigating tool is just that...a tool...like a hammer. Owning one does not not impart to it's owner the knowledge to build a house, however building a house without one would be difficult. The same for navigating tools. I prefer a technology solution over your preference for classic, purist, old-school. Does that make my tool better? Is a hammer better than a saw for building a house?

--Greg

[nies]

Greg, me thinks you protest to much......you sound like me rationizing my latest and expensive boat purchase to my wife....every thing you say is true, but don't forget how to add just because you have a calculator.........Phil

[HenryC]

As a matter of fact, I've never used a chart plotter.  For small boats it's way too much machinery to have to worry about managing when piloting really isn't that difficult.  It might come in very handy for navigating a deep draft vessel in a narrow channel in a fog, but for most recreational boating its a bit much.

Am I opposed to technology?  Of course not. It would be irresponsible to not have a GPS aboard these days. I carry a hand-held and I plot my fixes on the chart.  But I also lay out a course and  a traditional DR track, which I frequently update with visual bearings (if I have the time and visibility) and, yes, more GPS fixes when appropriate. There is no need for one to be used INSTEAD of the other. The point is that the technology provides the positional data, but the navigation is done by hand and eye.  I either know exactly where I am, or I know immediately when I don't. 

There is a good reason for this, not just purist fanaticism and Luddite traditionalism.  Sure, the software can keep track of where you are and provide a visual display of the situation, but the entire operation becomes one of managing the software, not driving the boat.  I work with software every day (I'm a computer mapping specialist and Geographic Information Systems analyst), and I see the same disturbing trends in my industry that I see on the water.  I've had people with Master's degrees in GIS (can you imagine that, a graduate degree in how to memorize a user interface?) that are actually proud of the fact that they can't tell the difference between latitude and longitude. Automation is fine for doing those things that people can't do well, but when we rely on it exclusively we lose a grasp of the fundamentals and that intuition that should always be there in the back of a a seaman's head to warn him "Whoa...that just doesn't seem right, let me double check that."  I see it on the job all the time; the maps come out of the plotters or flash up on the monitors with this air of legitimacy which can be quite misleading. Garbage in, garbage out.

Since I am one of those throwbacks that  knows celestial, I am occasionally asked by offshore- bound yachtsmen if they should invest in a sextant and the training to master it.  I counsel them against it, since GPS units are extremely cheap and reliable, you can always keep a spare hand-held or two in the chart table drawer.  You are much more likely to drop your sextant over the side than for all your GPS units to go on the fritz at once.  You are better off learning first aid, or diesel engine repair, or how to cook.   But the fact remains, if you take the trouble to learn celestial, you will also learn nautical astronomy, cartography, geography and mathematics, as well as piloting and dead reckoning and emergency navigation techniques.   Maybe traditional navigation is obsolete, but no one should go to sea who doesn't know how to maintain a DR track or plot a running fix.  And if you don't know what those terms mean, someone needs to stuff you out of one of those little round windows. : )

Incidentally: 

Distance = Rate X Time

Time = Distance / Rate

Rate = Distance / Time

Sure, if you prefer you can use a pocket calculator, but you still have to remember what to key in and in what order.

[kchunk]

Henry, I never said or assumed you were against technology. You were the one that made the statement about your nav slide rule being far superior to digital alternatives...and you haven't even tried a modern digital alternative?

Apparently, our tools for navigation do the same thing because, despite my lack of paper charts, nautical slide rule, or handheld GPS, I also either know exactly where I am, or I know immediately when I don't. And this summer, when I was about 20 miles NE of Marathon, FL, trying to get to the Channel 5 bridge (the first high bridge from Hawk's Channel in the Atlantic to the ICW on the inside), and this hit:




I still knew EXACTLY where I was...where the lee shore was...our leeward direction and progression...our speed (over 6 kts under a double reefed main alone)...our depth under the keel...the charted depth of the water ahead. And I had to do nothing to prepare my chart plotter for the weather. I couldn't imagine even trying to manage paper charts and slide rules and hand held GPSsess when it's suddenly blowin stink with seas building and wind driven salt spray. I wouldn't want to manage all that analog paraphernalia when the piloting IS difficult.

If you've seriously never tried a modern GPS chart plotter, find a friend who has one and ask him to show it off to you. In my opinion, they are as indispensable as a transom shower. And if you can manage turning one on you've pretty much mastered the machinery. There's honestly nothing to it. It's nothing like LORAN or even the GPS of 10 years ago.

...and thanks for the algebra tip... 

--Greg

[Bob23]

   Greg: "Is a hammer better than a saw"? Better analogy: Is a hammer better than a nailgun? No, they are both indispensable tools which have their proper place. I'm glad I came up through construction during the non- pneumatic age. I can out hand nail most of these newbies on the site. Would I want to frame a house by hand? Nope. I love the nailguns ability to save my elbows.
   Same with GPS. I like knowing how to do stuff...be it mix my own drink, rebuild my trucks engine,  or perform manual paper navigation. But you have good point: when the weather turns bad, we often don't have time or want to get out the charts. A chartplotter is nice. Let's face it, if there was not a need, chartplotters and GPS would never had been invented. 
   But the sextant is not an extinct tool; rather as long as the stars are in place, it will always be a valuable and reliable tool, providing that one knows how to use it. I'm learning. And  thanks Henry for your posts about celestial nav. Very helpful- I've printed 'em.
   Don't get me wrong; I love technology and all one can do with it. But I still like to know how to write, even though most folks would agree that my left-handed chicken scratch more resembles hieroglyphics!
   ps. The story of the motor home is true. I be live they  (or he) was a Stella Award recipient.
Bob23, wishing fair winds to all here in 2010!

[newt]

When did hull speed vs wind speed become a discussion of the relative merits/disadvantages of types of marine technology? This is an old much debated topic, and one that should go back to its GPS....et al threads. Why should there just be one way of sailing, when any problem can be approached safely by many different ways. I own a handheld GPS, a chartplotter and paper maps with a good watch. Any of the above when used skillfully can give me the speed.
Greg, I am a bit surprised that you would lean so heavily on electronics, as Florida seems to be the lighting capital of the world. But if that is what you want for your adventures- go for it. I think the convenience of a chartplotter is hard to beat.
Henry's way is alot more like fly fishing- where less is more. His adventure uses traditional tools, which have served sailors for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Its a different game, but a great adventure never the less. When I sail small and coastal, this is the way I like to go.
Bottom line- your both right. You just live in different worlds.

[Shawn]

"and chip log? They're decorations too!"

If one knows how to use it a chip log it can give a more accurate reading of water speed then a GPS will. GPS don't give water speed, they give speed over ground.

Shawn