Topping Lift or Rigid Boom Vang?

[Mundaysj]

Hi all,
As a spin off from a Blond Ambition post .... I have found that many of you have a full topping lift (from masthead to end of boom).  Mine only has a mini (line off the backstay).  I am thinking of changing it this winter.  But how do I decide if a full topping lift is better or a rigid boom vang or boomkicker is better?  I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks,
Sherie

[newt]

Sherie
What do you want to do with your boom? If you just want to hold it up, simpler is better. Why by a boomkicker when a dollar's worth on line from the masthead to the end of the boom will do the job? (with a two dollar snap thrown in). One of the reasons for a CP is they are simple and do the job with a lack of fuss. Mine I have kept that way with just  a line and a snap.
Just my 2 cents.

[Bob23]

Well, Sherie:
   You already know my thoughts. I agree with Newt and taking it a step further, you could install a small block up near the mast head, run a line through for an adjustable topping lift. This could cleat off at the base of the mast. A nice winter project. An aside: I prefer to drill and tap out the holes and install stainless steel machine screws instead of pop rivets. Yeah, I know, I shouldv'e been an aircraft mechanic. Pop rivets will work ok, I suppose, but I think a screw is better. Also removable with a screw driver.
   I would oppose a rigid boom kicker. I like my boom vang for tensioning the boom down. Newt's right...KISS...keep it simple Sherie!
   Bob23, keepin' it simple...and fun!

[Mundaysj]

Newt & Bob - Thanks for your input!

[Craig Weis]

I like the topping lift, or better yet just a ss. cable clamped on to the back stay with a quick release fastener. skip. Ridget kickers are for really big boats, and they always seam to be a source of constant fiddling by the skipper. 

I bought a boom bail from West Marine years ago that was too large/long for the boom, it was the smallest they sold. By squeezing the bail to shape using my workbench vice the fit started to take shape and wrap around the circumferance of the boom's bottom arch.

So i guess-a-mated the lenght of the predrilled tangs and hacksawed some tang off. I sank one steel rivet on each side of the bail using the available tang holes. Then I beat the tangs of the bail to shape with a light hammer, sinking steel rivets into each tang hole as it snuggled up to the arc of the boom. The fit was perfect and the 'hold' will be forever 'cause the rivets were steel.   

[dawntreader]

Sherie,

late entry on this one, but go with a topping lift. 

a major advantage is being able to "scandalize the main".  When winds pick up too quickly and reefing can't be easily or safely accomplished,  rather than lufting and the sail flapping, you can shorten the topping lift, curving the luff of the sail to spill air. Your main is still trimmed, but less efficiently, and you can continue to navigate.

mike

[curtisv]

Umm.  I think you should flatten sail when winds picks up not add draft to the sail.

Scandalizing worked for gaff rigged sails but I don't think it works for a bermuda sail.

Best sailing to windward would be flat and eased.  This is possible if you have a traveler or the opposite of a Barber hauler but its probably easier to reef if you have jiffy reefing.

Anyway, I agree with you guys about a topping lift being just fine and less expensive than a boomkicker although I have a boomkicker and like it for the convenience.

Curtis

[Potcake boy]

Curtisv,
May I humbly submit a small revision to your comments in reference to sail trim.
Flattening the sail in heavy air is indeed an accepted means of de-powewing. However the term "flattening" is meant to describe the cord depth of the sail and not the overall shape.  For the most part flattening is achieved with luff and foot tension. Moving the traveler to windward and easing the mainsheet allows the upper sections of the sail to be eased relative to the lower sections - twist. Without a traveler or kicker the scandalizing technique will serve the same purpose, though somewhat more cumbersome to operate.

Being old school, I added a traveler and changed my sheeting to mid boom (traveler on the bridgedeck), and added a vang. With the shocking price of hardware in the boat store even basic boat rigging is expensive so maybe your kicker would be a good option to a traveler, saving the conversion from the transom mounted main sheet that comes from the factory. The transom mounted system has the advantages that is gives more leverage than mid boom and puts less strain on the boom. So far my boom seems to handling it with no problem.

I have been preaching that these CPs are not racing sailboats and should be enjoyed for their purpose of the simple pleasure of sailing, but proper sail trim is still important if not as critical. The response to sail trim isn't as dramatic as you would find on a performance boat so it may be a little harder to understand the results of a change of trim. The trimming methods  on a stock boat are by design fairly simple, but can achieve the same basic results. The exception to my last statement and the one point I was compelled to address was the lack of twist control with the basic transom mounted sheeting system, and the lack of a vang. I added both to my rig and really appreciate the extra control in less than perfect sailing conditions. I stopped short of too much fancy sail trim gear because on a CP it would be like "putting lipstick on a pig" (and I do love my little piggy as she is).

P.S. twist is also used in lumpy seas with light air to minimize speed robbing hobby horsing.

My only remaining angst with my mainsail is the very deep cut of the sail. Its the original sail and hasn't been used much so I don't believe it's really blown out. I just can't get it flat with luff and foot tension, there's always a slack area in the luff that won't flatten.  I have been mentally designing a loose footed full batten main, and considering if the cost would deliver an equal benefit. This thinking has spawned some interesting ideas for sail shaping and very easy reefing, that may be the added benefit to justify the cost. If this does materialize I will post the details and results for everyone, as it would be an inexpensive conversion except the new main. If I was faced with the necessity of replacing the main it would be a no brainer.

This post was not meant as a contradiction but rather a clarification, and I do stand to be corrected if appropriate.

Thanks again Curtisv for your input - sharing of experience is where we all learn.

Nautical terminology: Bend the elbow - the celebration follwing a white knuckle ride back to port in a nasty bit of weather.

Ron

[mike gartland]

Just a short 2 cents worth.  I recently installed a spare halyard (I use a CDI furler on me genoa so have had a spare set of open sheaves on my masthead for the two years I've owned my 23).  I have had a few nasty experiences in high winds, usually when sailing single handed, having to deal with getting sails up or down using the originally supplied pigtail off the backstay.  I also have lazy jacks and they will support the boom if they are snugged down but always wanted the security of the pigtail support....that is, until you've just raised sail and a gust of wind has powered the main, spun the boat around, and I am straining mightily to get the pigtail released...can be exciting.  Now with and old spare halyard as a topping lift, all things seem easier and safer.  I haven't had to throw a reef in the main yet when the winds pick up while under sail but I have no doubt that it will be easier than using the old pigtail.  I have never used a boom-kicker type of boom vang (I have the old traditional blocks and line type of vang).  I'm sure they work fine but the topping lift seems like a simpler and less expensive way to go and it has worked very well for me. 

[Bob23]

Wow:
   I'ver really learned a  lot by reading all the replys to the original question. I sure do appreciate all your collective experience. My pigtail-on-the- backstay ( I hope that's the correct name) has one use and one use only. It supports the boom when the ship is at rest. While I'm setting up to sail, one of the first things is to hook up the topping lift (also a spare halyard, Mike) to the boom. Seems to me, ain't no way you gonna sail dat ting wit da boom restricted to da pigtail, mon. Da boom got to move wit da wind, mon!
   Ron: I've been contemplating changing from transom mounted mainsheet arrangement to a traveler on the bridgedeck. You've convinced me that it's a good move. Having a bit of time due to recent rotator cuff surgery, I'm gonna scrounge the boat yards for used hardware.
Bob23, recovering

[Shawn]

I am going back and forth between the topping lift and a Boomkicker on my 23/3 too. FWIW, the Boomkicker just holds up the mast with flexible fiberglass rods it isn't the same thing as a rigid boom bang. Those are much more expensive.

For those that use a topping lift how much clearance is there between the topping lift and the aft stay? Anyone ever had problems with the topping lift getting wrapped around the aft stay on a jibe? Does everyone make the topping lift adjustable, run down to a cleat at the base of the mast?

Thanks,

Shawn

[kchunk]

Hi Shawn. My 23 has a roller furling headsail so my jib halyard was unused. I use this halyard as my topping lift. Essentially it stays connected to the boom at all times and certainly makes things easier IMO. With the main sail stowed, I can trim the topping lift so it pulls the boom up and makes a lot more room in the cockpit. When hoisting the main, since my halyards are led aft, the rope clutches for the main halyard and topping lift are right next to each other. Hoist the main halyard, and ease the topping lift, and dropping the sail is the opposite, trim the topping lift and ease the main halyard.

With the sail up, the topping lift is just slack enough to not put any lift on the boom, but not too slack that it's flapping in the breeze. The clearance from the aft stay has never been an issue.

One more thing about a topping lift, IMO, reefing while underway is way easier.

--Greg

[Shawn]

Hi Greg,

Thanks. My halyards are led to the cockpit as well but I have hank on headsails. In my old boat I used the spinnaker halyard as a topping lift and that did work out well. I had a Boomkicker on it as well but didn't use it as much as it was more of a pain since I trailer sailed that boat and it added to the rigging time.

Thanks again,

Shawn

[kickingbug1]

    my cp16 is the first sailboat ive had with a boom vang. ive read up on the use of a boom vang but i dont think i fully understand. fill me in if you would. last year i took the vang off (something less to fool with). the boat didnt seem to be adversely affected. i probably wasnt using it correctly. another question. my boat came with a whisker pole. when going downwind, wing and wing how many degrees off the mast should the pole be using the standard 110 jib?

[kchunk]

Hi Greg,

Thanks. My halyards are led to the cockpit as well but I have hank on headsails. In my old boat I used the spinnaker halyard as a topping lift and that did work out well. I had a Boomkicker on it as well but didn't use it as much as it was more of a pain since I trailer sailed that boat and it added to the rigging time.

Thanks again,

Shawn

Shawn, I've seen a spare halyard rigged as simply as hanging a block off of something at the mast head. From there you could just cleat it to the mast base or add a turning block to the deck at the mast step, a deck organizer to turn the line aft and a rope clutch similar to the set up used for you halyards, just on the other side of the mast.