First launch of new boat didn't go well .....

[demanon]

Hi all ...
Launched my 1980 CP-16 yesterday .... was having fun when first mate noticed stuff floating down below .... emergency trip back to launch ramp and back on trailer before anything too serious happened .... looks like at some point the keel was damaged (before I bought her) and she leaked through that spot .... could this just be fiberglassed over in order to repair or do I have a real serious problem?
Thanks!
Dave

[Rick Klages]

Describe the damage in detail and upload pictures.  If the keel is still firmly attached  than yes you can patch it.  If the keel is loose you will want to contact Hutchins. Holes are easy as long as the structure is sound.

ick

[demanon]

I will take some good shots of it tomorrow ... thanks

[Bob23]

Ick:
   What is the keel configuration on the 16's? My 23's keel (and I'm assuming all 23's) is concrete except for the last foot or so aft. That is just a void, the lowest point where water can enter. The bilge pumps reside down there and because it's just fiberglass between you and the deep, a hole there could sink the boat.
   Is the 16 the same? Most likely, that's where demanon's problem is. I haven't heard of a structural problem with any Compac's concrete keel, although I suppose, in the envet of a hard grounding, it could happen.
   Bob23, enjoying my electric bilge pump!

[Rick Klages]

Solid concrete except for a few of the first boats which had scrap iron also.  No bilge pump well on the 16 (no bilge pump or much of a bilge either).  If the keel is tight he just needs to find the hole and  patch it.  If the the keel moves sepratly from the rest of the hull the damage is deeper.

ick

[demanon]

Hi all
I have posted a couple of pictures of the damage ..... a simple patch job? The area still feels a little damp .... but no other damage to the keel seems apparent.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Dave

[Paul]

Dave,

Good photos.  I take it that the second is simply a close up of the first.

Two things get my attention.  One, is obviously the damage.  But, despite the good photo, I can't tell if I am looking directly at concrete or raw fiberglass.  I see no gelcoat.  So, what really concerns me is the dark gray matter surrounding the light colored matter.  The second thing is the card shaped part left of the light colored matter.  I have ground off the gelcoat of my entire keel in the past and found no such shape.

So, considering the facts:  1)no gelcoat, 2)gray matter where gelcoat ought to be, and 3)card shaped object to the left, I can't help but think this had happened before to the previous owner.  Looks like it's been patched before.

That said, you still need to repair it, huh?  IMHO, a proper repair would be somewhat laborious.  Clean the area.  Dry the area thoroughly.  Patch with epoxy (maybe some fiberglass cloth as well).  Fair.  Paint with favorite bottom paint.  Don't underestimate the importance of drying the keel thoroughly.

I did click on the images to zoom in, but I can't tell exactly what the light colored material is.  Does it feel rough like concrete/cement?  Or does it feel smooth?  If so, then you have not broken the fiberglass all the way to the ballast.  Let us know.

[mgoller]

Nice picture of a bad problem.  I didn't know that by clicking on a photo in the gallery it opens up in a new screen lifesize.  Man the detail!

Anyway, yeah I see the card shape to the left.
My interpretation is you're looking at Florida cement, white sand and concrete, then what's left of the fiberglass (ground down and trimmed), feathered layers of gelcoat, and 5 bottom coats of different colors and then the grey JBWeld, what's left of it.

I can imagine a guy ripped a chunk of the bottom on some rough rocks, pipe or something and knew it.  He pulled the boat and said, "Damn".
He took his sander and sanded the ripped edges down and clipped a hanging chunk away.  Then he dabbed a good sized goop of JBWeld.  It dripped and sagged a little too.  Then he painted the bottom.  Problem is, JBWeld doesn't adhere well to damp cement and doesn't have a lot tensile strength in a thin coat.  It would be as strong as peanut brittle.

Whatever you do, do it right.  You don't ever want to worry about this.  The patch will need to extend well beyond the original tear.  You'll need to sand away all the bottom paint in the area to see how far the damage went and if there is more you haven't seen.

You'll need to create some roughness so the new fiberglass will have something to bite into.  Do a lot of research and reading to find out how this is done.  It can be done and never show.  The hardest parts are:
Right prep, right materials, right mixing and curing, and then hardest of all is the insane amount of sanding with finer and finer grits to blend the gelcoats.

If you don't care about invisibility then the gelcoat sanding wont take that long.

I'd say a weekend of research a Mon-friday gathering of materials and tools, and a weekend of work.  Pretty worthwhile, cost about $150 if you have the tools.

Best of luck - you can do it!

[demanon]

Thanks everyone for your response .... I have no experience with fiberglass, so I suppose I am going to contact a professional to try to get this repaired. I have no idea what that will cost, but I only paid $1,000 for the boat and motor and everything else on the boat is perfect, so I should be okay as far as my investment goes, but the sailing season in closing in on me fast!
Thanks again.
Dave

[Bob Condon]

Dave,

where are you located? and how handy are you?

I have experience with fiberglass and your job really
is not that hard. It will cost quite a bit via professionals and because
you have not spent a lot of money on the boat, lets get some education
out of it...Working with fiberglass is easy, but requires patience. The real key initially is to get the area clean and dry, then work in layers, from the inside out rebuilding the strength with fiberglass epoxy saturated cloth/tape and epoxy. the key here is to get a first layer in... and walk away letting it cure... and do it again two hours later... and walk away.... and again and again until you are about level.

A little education on epoxy is that it comes in two parts... Use West System as it is available and a good product. You will need to purchase some Silica also which can be purchased with the product. Epoxy is very runny so you mix the two parts of epoxy together, in a paper cup with a popcycle stick, then you add silica to the mix until it is "mayonaise" or "Peanut butter" texture and use with a putty knife to be as neat and smooth as you can.

Depending on the working time you chose, (the catalyst agent comes in slow, meduim, long time) the epoxy will "kick" meaning get HOT and then will harden.

You need to take care on leaving the epoxy in the paper cup around. I leave it outdoors because "it could" catch fire of it gets hot enough. I have never seen it happen, but it is a documented risk.

What tools do you have?

So here is the start because the boat is not sailable,
and a professional will need to do the same:

1. remove all the JPWeld (I have never seen that). Use
an awl, something with a right angle hook so you can hook and pull.

The idea is to remove in small pieces and not try to remove it all at one...

Nice and easy is the key to not do any addiitonal damage.

The idea here is that this intersection needs to be completely dry when you work on it so by removing all the crud now, the air can get in there and dry it out. You may want to place a small fan blowing on it and leave it for a few hours or overnight...

===

Where is this location on the boat? Keel to hull at what point?



=====

Working on a fix like this is very much like taping and seaming wallboard. You want the area openned up so you have feathered joings instead of hard butt (aka a wall) joints.

If you have a small grinder to bevel the edges around the whole at a small angle... neat, and perfect is not necessary because only the top surface will be seen and the epoxy will feather very nicely.

I will look through my books on fiberglass repair and see if I can find the ISBN
of the book and you can see if they have it in your local library. The Gougeon pamphlets (West System - epoxy) which can be found at West marine may be helpful...

[kchunk]

There is nothing I can't repair with fiberglass. There is nothing I can't repair with fiberglass. There is nothing I can't repair with fiberglass.

Keep saying it!

The hardest part of your job is going to be drying the keel. It's going to take a bit more than a day. I'd say months is more like it. You really should try to let every bit of moisture evaporate from the keel. Epoxy does not like moisture until it's cured. And I've heard that moisture in the concrete keels of Com-Pacs is a really bad thing. I don't know what a 16 weighs, but if you could store the boat upside down for a while I'm sure that would hasten the drying.

Other than that, the repair should be relatively easy.

[Bob Condon]

Another thought I have about drying the keel is to determine how bad the issue may be.

You could take a small drill bit (1/4" or less) and drill 4 holes down the leading
edge of the keel to see if any water comes streaming out. the holes would be equally spaced staring below the failed patch to the bottom of the keel.

If water does stream out, then you knw that the concrete is quite saturated and the water will drain from the holes... If nothing comes out, then the area is pretty dry which is good to know.

I doubt that the hull will handle the keel weight inverting, so don't even think of that.


To hasten the drying, I would take a couple of heatlamps, and place it 7 - 12 inches from the keel to heat up the general area. You still want to be able to touch the keel with your hands so it should be WARM  but not HOT. The heated vapors should head toward the patch to escape... leave the lights on for several days... If water streamed out of the holes, then I expect it will take a week or more to dry this out.

===

Make a note that the holes that were made, need to be patched with Epoxy at the end of the project...


anyone have any other thoughts?

[Paul]

JB Weld!!!  Marcus, as soon as I read your post I realized that must be what it is.  Good call!!  Bad news for Dave, though.

Dave,

I certainly respect your comfort level regarding the repair.  If nothing else, get two or three quotes on the job AND review the West System booklet on fiberglass repair.  That way, you have a little knowledge of the work and time frame the job requires.  Then you can make an educated decision about who should do the job, including yourself.  In my experience, I find if I budget an amount of time for a job, I must multiply that time by THREE if it's a house project and I must multiply by SIX for a boat project.  The learning curve is steep, but you'll feel proud of the job you've done.

Regarding dry time:  First rule is "You're not in a hurry."  Realistically, if your sailing season ends in October, then you'll get some sailing in this season.  If you rush it, you'll pay one way or another;  either the yard that does the work this time of year or if you do it hastily, you may be doing it over next year.  So, take your time.

Go to the West System home page and enjoy reading.  You can find the basics there, plus some fine examples of epoxy work.  It's really not that bad.  Don't let the exothermic experience scare you away from the job.  Their website has some good advise on the subject.  Again, read the basics.  West is not the only one out there.  System Three is another reputable epoxy maker.  Their directions are geared toward the ammeter builder.  Enjoy their website, too.

As for web support other than this site, I have found a huge help on the Classic Plastics web site.  Very knowledgable.  Use their search function.  If you can't find an answer, then they will welcome your questions.  Plastic Classic Forum

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Paul

[demanon]

Thank you all for your help! Bob, my boat is currently located at Rye harbor NH. I have a dry storage spot in the parking lot there. Are you familiar with Rye Harbor? Is this repair something that could be done on site? I live in Chichester and have a heated garage and all sorts of tools there. Guess I had this fantasy of repairing the boat on site and getting in some of the season before the cold weather gets us. I do need to learn fiberglass repair ... sure would come in handy if one owned a boat! Sounds like I need to haul it home, put it in the garage and work on getting it dried out first ...... anyone interested buying it as-is? Next season I will have a mooring in New Castle and will buy a larger boat ... and get a survey!
Dave

[Rick Klages]

don't despair!  Bring it home, dry it out, fix it and sail it.

ick