Can you tip these babies over?

[newt]

Hi, I am a new owner of a 23/3. Took her out alone today and the Great Salt Lake- mirror surface, everything was going fine. Then the wind shifted and all heck broke loose. 20, then 25 knot of wind, she was overpowered so I reefed the jib and main. Trying to get back to a narrow harbor opening  ( I have a thing about not using motors), blown over to much had to turn around and try again...Too much wind to come about, so I tighted down the mainsheet and gibed (30 knot wind at this point) The wind caught it hard, and I was working the jib sheets to keep them from wrapping around the forstay. (tiller on ropes) I land on my butt in the cockpit, the boat heels over 40-45- perhaps even 50, but the tiller keeps it in its circle and it pops up again- Wow!!
Now before you start lecturing me- I am a very careful sailor and have had experience with much larger yachts in high wind situations, I was not in danger of falling out, but I was amaised and the positive stability of these micro yachts. I was not expecting that with just 2ft 3 inch draw.
Question- has anyone sunk a spreader with these little guys? Got water in the cockpit (from broaching, not waves)? I think she will be perfect for the Salt Lake, where weather is more like a inland sea and not a lake.
BTW- I am happy to be here
Newt

[Lost Lake]

Sounds like a scary ride!! I was out in 30 knot winds and dropped the sails.... I'm not quite ready for that wind yet. Hopefully this year I'll do it.

I need a tiller tamer too.... Were you out alone?

[kchunk]

LL, I bought a Davis "Tiller Tamer" from Worst Marine. Before I took a drill to my tiller I tried a few different locations for the tamer as well as the cleats and just didn't like how the setup had to work on my 23/3 so I scrapped the idea and opted for the Cajun tiller tamer instead. Google it if your not sure what it is. Works like a charm. Set up is easy, uses spare line you probably have laying around and involves no drilling. And best of all...the price is right!

Here's a good site for the Cajun tiller tamer http://blumhorst.com/potterpages/Photopoint/0005/cajun-tiller-tamer.htm

If you still want a Davis Tiller Tamer, I'll sell you mine, brand new from West Marine for $30. I'll eat the tax and shipping to you. http://ecatalog.westmarine.com/full.asp?page=1251&LinkBackProdId=10192

--Greg

[Bob23]

Newt:
   I'm sure you can tip over just about anything if you put your mind to it. Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I've been out in 25 kt. wind in my 1985 23/2. We were anchored overnight and during the night the wind picked up to 20-25 knts. The anchor held...good thing because a lee shore was our next destination if it hadn't. I motored out of there because at the time I only had 1 reef point in the main. ( I just dropped it off last weekend to have a 2nd reef point sewed in.
  The 23's are tough little boats. The semi-soft chine lends to a bit of initial heel but after a bit, that 1350 lb. keel takes over. Last summer I was hit by a gust while taking the wind onto my starboard quater. Full main and genoa. Before I could say shiver me timbers, the mast was about 45-50 degrees. She behaved perfectly, just like yours. She rounded up, spilled the wind from the main and righted nicely.
   I also don't use my motor when I can sail but when safety is an issue (as it always is) I like my Nissan 8. Saved the day more than once.
   Keep the dialogue going, Bob23 in NJ

[newt]

I am just coming off of sailing Island Packets and varly good sized Catalinas, and I am just so impressed with this boat. She saved my bacon. Regarding the tiller tamer- yes I have the one from west marine, put there by the previous owner. I thought it worked well, but I am just learning to sail it. I was alone- not a good idea, but the mirrored surface lulled me out. I must of heard the mermaid sing.
In such conditions in the future ( lets see if I can learn from this):
I felt I could not reef the main because of the wind increase, but if I set the tiller and motor dead upwind out in the bay I bet I could of, or if worse came to worse, drop the anchor and take the main down. What has been your experience in heavy weather?
Or maybe just dose all sails and motor in. I think my pride was keeping me from doing that. I never really felt unsafe until the wind knocked me on my can. Another lesson. What is the saying "before pride goeth the fall".
Of course it goes without saying- once the wind got above 10 knots I needed my jackline and my so-spenders with a tie in.
All in all, probably a pretty good shakedown sail.
Newt

[Bob23]

Newt:
   My father in law, a veteran sailor with about 70 years of sailing under his belt, gave me some good but simple advice: Reef early. I've also gotten caught in big wind, trying to reef and having a heck of a time of it. After that, I practiced reefing so many times, that now it's just another manuever. I think the boat sails better reefed, she's more balanced- even if her skipper ain't!!
   Bob23 in NJ

[newt]

Question for you Bob,
How do you reef your main when you are solo and the wind is starting to kick it. I hate to go to the mast in those situations,but I have been thinking...
1. Start the outboard, throw the autopilot on and head directly into the wind.
2. get your jib out just a little, head down on a broad reach, almost a run, and haul in the mainsheet, then take in the main very carefully.
Or just
3. Head for cover and do it in a sheltered location.
What do you do?

[kchunk]

Hey there Newt. It's been my experience that the main will not go up or down unless completely unloaded. With even the slights breeze, if not heading straight into the wind, the slugs will have too much friction in the track. You missed one reefing scenario: heave-to, unload the main, reef, kick the rudder around and continue back on your original tack.

I think the best way to reef our 23's is first to replace that little topping pigtail on the aft stay with a true topping lift. It makes reefing much easier plus there are other advantages to a topping lift.

My question to Bob is: how is your reefing set up? My boat is still relatively new to me. I've practiced reefing a few times but have never had to reef in anger. The problem I'm finding is with my lines led aft. The halyard is controlled from the port side cabin top. The reefing lines are starboard on the boom and the reef hook is starboard too. So when I reef single-handed (I practice single-handed because I know when I'll have to reef I'll be single-handed even if I have others on the boat ) first I go to the port side of the cockpit, pull the topping lift and ease the main halyard to a mark I made prior on the halyard; next, head up to the mast on the starboard side and hook the reef tack on the reef hook; then back to the cockpit port side to tighten up the main halyard; then again back to the starboard side of the boom to tighten up the reef outhaul, which is cleated way up by the mast, then back to the cockpit port side to ease the topping lift; finally to the boom to tidy up the main. All in all, it's a task that's easily do-able, but really should be much easier. Back and forth, back and forth, I imagine it quite humorous looking, this 6' tall, 220 lb  gorilla hopping all around this little boat  .

Bob, you said you're having a second reef point added to your main, how do you plan rigging it? Two lines, one for each reef point? I have two reef points on my main but I only have one rigged and ready at any time. Not really enough room for the primary outhual, two cheek blocks and two cleats for reefing.

I would love to see some pictures of how others have their reefing set up. I really want to redo mine, but I want to avoid putting anymore holes in my boom than I really have to.

--Greg

[newt]

Greg-
Interesting procedure... I usually try to get everything done at the mast, then shorten the foot starting at the end of the boom. But your post brought up an question. Do you guys have something in the mast to keep the slugs from falling out as you lower the sail? Maybe my 23 is missing a part. And heaving to makes sense, I just thought a small boat would be unstable- silly me. I will try it next time.
Newt

[kchunk]

That seems about right if you cleat your halyards at the mast. The set up I have seems to be a hybrid. The halyards are led aft but the reef lines are controlled at the mast. I've seen that leading the reefing lines aft is possible, but I just don't know if it's practical for a boat this size. And besides, all the monkey motion adds to the complexity of raising and lowering the mast for trailering.

The sails are held by sail stops. You should have them and if you don't you should get them. It's just a metal slug with a knurled thumb lock. Probably available anywhere like West Marine.

Oh..and heaving to, learn it! I was a little apprehensive at first too, but am very comfortable now. It's a great way to stop for lunch, grab another beer or head forward for a quick p p break . Regarding the latter, go forward to lee side and the genny provides a bit of privacy and you don't have to worry about pi$$'n in the wind...lol!

[Bob23]

Greg and Newt:
  First, I'm not an authority on this, but here goes. First off, I have roller furling for my jib, so the factory jib halyard works as a real topping lift. It stays connected at all times while under sail. Makes life easier when reefing as the boom doesn't drop on my head!
  Second, only the first set of reef points will be rigged to the boom. The two new points will have lines in the grommets and will have to be rigged by hand around the boom. At this point, the main will have already been reefed to the first point and it will not have the pull that full canvas will have. Should be ok.
  Third, Newt, you need sail stops. Check Defender item #613631. I have two of 'em. One keeps the boom from dropping when unloaded, the other keeps the slugs from slipping down the sail track and out to who knows where!
   Fourth, to reef: I always reef while close-hauled on a starboard tack because I do all my breefing from the starboard side of the boom. I bring the jib in fairly tight, Keep the tiller slightly over to port and lashed using the tiller tamer, although a line would serve just as well. I like the instant asjustablity of the tamer. Next, I let the main out a bit to unload the sail. Before loosening the halyard (mine are run aft also), I tighten up on the topping lift. With the boom secured, I loosen the halyard, dropping the main, hook the reefing grommet over the reefing hook or cunningham hook, as I've heard it called, pull the line that runs through the grommet on the leech of the sail and cleat if off on the boom. Then I tie the two reef points in the field of the sail around the boom. I keep short pieces of line permanently in each one so they are there when I need them.
  That's about it, my friends. The trick is to keep the boat pointed somewhat into the wind but still making a bit of headway so the wind stays on the starboard side of the sail. I only make one trip to the mast after securing the topping lift, then after all lines are made fast, back to the cockpit, head off wind, and trim the sails. After that, if my beer hasn't spilled, I toast another success!
  Bob23, dreaming of sailing, on the hard in NJ

[kchunk]

Bob, just a quick comment about your second reef point, you don't want to forget the outhaul. Just tying the second reef to the boom will lower the sail but you'll have no outhaul. If you're out and in need of a second reef, I'll assume the winds are pretty brisk. These conditions without an outhaul will not only sail poorly, but you'll risk shredding the main. That's why I asked if you were considering a second pad eye and cheek block.

I've been looking at several boats and most have reefing lines run either through the boom; along the boom; or a combination of one line through and one line along. For our little booms, running internal reefing lines is not an option. I think for my situation, I'll replace the single cheek block with a double and just use the one cleat on the boom and rig each reef point with it's own line.

Bob, do you think reefing would be easier if the reef lines were rigged on the port side of the boom (same side as the halyard controls)? I figure if I'm redoing the whole set up I might as well make it easier.

--Greg

[Bob23]

Greg:
   Good point, hopefully one I would've realised before out on the water. Maybe after the first reef is in, I could use my existing outhaul for the second reef...I'll work it out when the main returns. A second padeye and cheek block is probably the way to go. I'll see what kind of hardware I have lying around. Maybe the existing cheek block should be replaced with a double and use the same cleat on the forward end of the boom to cleat it off.
  WOW! I just re-read your second paragraph...we're on the same page! (It's only 5 am...not quite awake yet...haven't had my morning coffee yet.)
   My main halyard is on the starboard side of the mast. That's why I reef on the starboard side. I don't know if the original setup has been changed bya previous owner of if they are all like this.  It seemed to be the easiest way to reef.
   Thanks again, Greg.
   Bob23 on my way to the coffee bean grinder!

[newt]

I am really enjoying this thread...my bigger boats of yesteryear had the reefing lines down to the cockpit on the starboard side, my new one just has the outhaul on the boom. Next trip I will spend a little time getting the reef lines up and functioning before I go out.
I don't want to modify my 23 for a year...so I will just see if I can work everything from the boom. I like to sail a boat for a year before I change her, so I don't do anything wasteful.
Newt

[Paul]

Hey guys!  Great thread!  Thought I'd jump in with my $0.02.

As I was reading your post about your reefing method, Greg, I too thought of my halyard arrangement and realized that the main halyard is on the starboard side.  That would certainly be an easy fix.

Regarding the outhaul, especially for the second reef, the aft reefing point on the boom is far enough aft that it should act as an outhaul as well.  You may be able to verify this by eye-balling the second reef's most aft grommet.  The reef point on the boom (the sheave) should be even further aft with respect to that grommet.

Regarding heaving to, I agree with the method described.  The problem I sometimes run into in heavy air is the main may still have wind pressure on it.  I found if I loosen the mainsheet enough to let only the main flog a bit, then reefing is a lot easier.  In this case, the jib and rudder are working against each other to remain hove to.

Hope this helps.  Again, great thread!