Irons

[slode]

Fred,

You can't start a tack on a broad reach and expect any boat to make it all the way past head to wind unless you sheet in both the main and headsail as you turn up to keep power on as you come to a close reach.  Did you have the main up?   Getting the Eclipse or any sloop rig through a tack with just the headsail out in any conditions will be more difficult.  The lifting force on the headsail wants to pull the bow away from the turn.  You need the force on the main to help pull the stern around.

In my 5th season with the Eclipse and I can't say I've ever really gotten stuck in irons with both sails up.  She's a pretty easy boat to beat with even single handed, just having simple cleats on the jib sheets.

[Cpy23ecl]

Main was up.  I've owned 5 other sloops in the last 40 years and none of them would have had a problem tacking in the conditions I was in.  The only exception to that was my CP23 which would end up in irons in light wind until I replaced the original flat slab rudder with a ruddercraft rudder.  After that it tacked fine as well.

Maybe it's just because all the other boats were considerably heavier and with the extra mass had enough momentum to see them through the tack?

I guess I'm just frustrated between the way it sails and the long list of quality issues I've encountered.  Every time I look too closely at the boat I seem to find another problem.  Last one was 6 out of 8 screws for the cockpit locker and gas tank locker hinges where over tightened and stripped out.  Plus the fact that they weren't through bolted - just wood screws.

Fred

[Eddie C]

I owned an Eclipse for 3 seasons and the only issue I had with going into irons was when the jib sheets would snag on something. This was fixed by mounting a whisker pole on the mast attached to an eye on the deck. 4 knots in a 15 mph breeze sounds a little slow. I?m wondering if your main is sheeted in a little tight causing it to stall. You may want to let the main breathe a little more - releasing it can actually help you complete a tack sometimes. My Eclipse was not a rocket but it is a well balanced, mannerly boat. My biggest complaint was my own fault - I?m probably shorter from standing up under the arch repeatedly. Regards, Eddie C.

[Cpy23ecl]

For reasons I have been unable figure out yet, my eclipse actually sails slower on a beam reach than when I'm close hauled. 

I've played around with sail trim and have found that by the time I let the main out far enough on a beam reach that I can get all 4 tell tales on the main streaming out properly the luff of the main is being backwinded by the jib.  If I release the jib more the jib tell tales stall.

I think I've ended up in irons more times than I've been able to tack successfully the first attempt.

I concur with the getting shorter.  Every time I move on the boat I'm hitting my head, knees, or elbows on something.

Fred

[slode]

Fred,

Is your mast rake way off?  Sounds like you may have it a few degrees forward of vertical.  I've known of more than a couple Eclipses with this issue and it will have an impact on sail trim and balance.   I can't say how stock mine was when I got it, but on first setup with the furler drum connected directly to the steamhead the mast was leaning forward way too much.  The stay turnbuckles were almost all the way out.  After installing a long d shackle between the steamhead and furler, and re-adjusting the stays I got it to perfectly square with the hull and it sails well at that angle.  It also allows more clearance for an anchor on the roller.  I setup the boat on the trailer in my yard, leveled the trailer, then leveled the mast to vertical.

On a beam reach or anywhere down wind of that the traveler also helps a lot.  If you don't use it, even with the vang hard on, the main will be too full in moderate to heavy winds.  With the traveler out 1/2-2/3 on a beam reach you can use the sheet to get the luff at a better angle through it's full height. 

[Cpy23ecl]

Interesting that you should bring up mast rake.  My mast definitely rakes forward.  Compared to a catalina 22 that docks next to me the top of my mast is probably 6" forward of his.  I called compac and talked to Rich about it and he told me that the mast is raked forward deliberately so that it is in the proper position with a couple of adults in the cockpit.

I think I may try changing the rake anyway.  If it helps it would have the added bonus of letting me get a better anchor for the boat.  Right now my furler drum is also attached directly to the stemhead and the largest anchor that fits is a 2.2kg claw and in my opinion that's not enough anchor for this boat.

I do use the traveler but don't always bother with the vang as it hasn't helped much with sail trim.  Using the vang makes the sail shape look better but the issues I described with the telltales on a beam reach don't improve with the vang.

Fred

[alsantini]

Fred.  Something is wrong!  There is no way you should wind up in irons in 12 kn winds.  Perhaps you have the main sheeted in too much.  Let it out until you have puckers along the mast.  Pull the main sheet it in until you just eliminate the puckers (there probably is a nautical term for "puckers" - I just don't know what it is?)  If I had to guess I would think you are sheeted in too much.  Don't give up on her or if you do I will buy her!  Call if you want to talk.  630-728-6035

[Cpy23ecl]

Al, That's what I keep thinking too but I haven't figured out what it is.  I'd guess the aft end of the boom was our past the boom gallows by 2 ft so I wasn't sheeted in tight and in fact I had done exactly what you described in easing off the main sheet until the main started to backwind and then pulling in the sheet just enough to get remove the backwinding.

Fred

[kickingbug1]

  havent been in irons since i owned my cp16 with stock rudder. i cant imagine the eclipse going into irons except maybe in real light air, they do have a small jib

[slode]

Frank,  Do you experience lee helm at all when underway in any direction?  If the mast is raked forward enough to cause issues with getting through head to wind I would think it would also be causing some lee helm, or a more neutral helm than ideal when close reaching. 

Raking the mast back to perpendicular to the hull can't hurt.  It should move the COE aft and help the stern turn through.  My Eclipse steers with a slight weather helm when close reaching, and any big gust will add to it.  You have to pull on the tiller a fair amount to keep course through a big gust.  But it keeps her safe, if I hand the tiller to an inexperienced sailor a big gust will just send her pointing further upwind.

[Cpy23ecl]

With proper sail trim I can get the boat nicely balanced most of the time to the point where I can sail for minutes at a time with the tiller locked with the tiller clutch.  When close hauled it has a very slight weather helm.  It also rounds up nicely when hit with a hard gust.

I plan to change the mast rake but it likely will be next spring as I'll be pulling the boat the next time I go up and tow it the 400 miles back home.

Fred

[Seachelle]

Hi, everyone! I'm following this thread with great interest as, by coincidence, I had the same thing happen to me with my Legacy (Sunny) a few weeks ago, under jib alone as well. The winds were pretty frisky that day and I only have one set of reef points in my mainsail, which I still thought would be too much sail. So I didn't use the mainsail at all, and I put up the storm jib. We were sailing, mostly on a broad reach, sometimes downwind, and eventually I had to tack or gybe. I tried tacking, but ended up in irons. I know with my Legacy, I definitely always need a decent amount of momentum to complete the tack, so I did bring her up to a close reach before tacking, but no dice. I suspect it's because I was using the storm jib and if I'd had the lapper jib up, maybe I could have completed that tack. (I ended up gybing, btw.) All good lessons for me to learn as I get to know my Legacy with each sail we have together. I do, incidentally, also have the Ruddercraft rudder on my Sunny.

Fair winds!
~ Chelle
SV Sunflower (Sunny) | 2021 Com-Pac Legacy
SV No Mas! | 1990 Com-Pac 23D MK3
sailawaywithchelle.wordpress.com

[Cpy23ecl]

Chelle - Good to know that you do have the ruddercraft rudder.  I've been contemplating spending the money to replace the stock rudder with a ruddercraft thinking that it might solve my problem.  Sounds as if it won't so you just saved me a boat unit!

When I ran into the problem with getting in irons while using just the jib I had my 135 fully unfurled and had the problem so I doubt having a larger jib will help.

MatC - that's interesting.  With the flat blade rudder on my 23 the rudder was very ineffective even when motoring at very slow speeds.  The ruddercraft rudder fixed that.  I've not had any problems with rudder control while motoring at very slow speeds with the eclipse, but after reading your post I may be back to replacing the factory rudder if changing the mast rake doesn't help with the problem.  The ruddercraft rudder isn't quite as attractive as the compac stock rudder but it's definitely a more elegant solution when it comes to trailering (no need to remove the rudder) and raising and lowering the rudder.

Fred

[Al]

Am I the only one on here that isn't a member of facebook, and thus can't access  the pix?

[Seachelle]

Al, I am also not on Facebook.

The only other way that I would be aware of sharing pic files, publicly, would be using the Google Files feature, or using Dropbox. (I have heard of Photobucket, too, but I have heard, also, that eventually there is some sort of fee involved, I think, but don't quote me on it.) I believe that, for both, one would need an account, one for Google and likewise for Dropbox, however. Both accounts are free to set up, though I recently tried to set up a Dropbox account, thinking it was free, only to find out they kept harassing me to sign up for some paid membership. So I bailed on it.

Many moons ago, I was able to figure out how to load photos on this forum, but it's been a while, so I don't remember how to do it. If I can figure it out again, I can share directions on how to do it, here, and perhaps MatC might be willing to load the pics of the rudder for us on this thread.